Tactical uses of units

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csparrow
Posts: 34
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 9:05 am

Tactical uses of units

Post by csparrow »

There are plenty of units in Wesnoth and here is a ways to categorize how to use them.
General melee units-these guys are you bread butter knife and cutting board they should be the back bone of your army.
General range units-these are almost as important as the g.m.u.s, but since they tend to be more tender than their melee counterparts they should be behind them.
secondary units- they can be both range and melee,should not make up the bulk of your force in most cases, and usually have a more specialized purpose.
Piercers-I am not referring to units that use pierce attacks, but the units that pierce through enemy lines.
scouts- these units are fast but tend rather weak and are good at quickly grabbing up villages.
Support-these units make other units better
Blockers-these guys have big hp and are hard to kill.
Flankers-they get behind enemy lines and wreak havoc on the enemy

Loyalist units

Bowman-the very definition of a General range unit. they have a good range attack and a weak melee attack, nothing to special
Cavalryman-Scout, a good melee attack, and fairly high resistance except for the weakness to pierce, and high speed.
Fencer-Flanker, they can go trough the smallest wholes in the enemy's position, turning a small whole into a big gap.
Heavy Infantry man-Blocker, clad in armor they have high resistance to almost all attack(fire and cold being the exceptions)
Horseman-Piercer, they do tons of damage due to charge but take a lot of damage back
mage-secondary range unit, they are strong but fragile
merman fighter-general melee unit if in water but pretty useless otherwise
spear man-general melee unit, they are cheap strong and all around good units.

Rebel units

Elvish archer-General range unit, fairly expensive for a general unit but very strong
Elvish Fighter-General melee unit, high effect, low price
Elvish Scout-Is just that a scout
Elvish Shaman-Support, can heal injured units and slow enemys
Mage-see loyalist
Merman hunter- general range unit if in water otherwise avoid recruitment of them
Wose-blocker the only way to kill they is to get your good ol' flamethrower out otherwise they are nearly impossible to kill

Northerner units

goblin spear man-secondary melee unit, weak alone but get a large enough group of them and they can be pretty powerful
naga warrior-general melee unit in water.
orcish archer-general range unit pretty weak but necessary in a faction with out much range
orcish assassin-secondary unit it is poisonous and that is good, or bad if you are facing it
orcish grunt-general melee unit it is strong brutal and cheap, three of my favorite things
troll whelp-blocker it heals it self and is cheap
wolf rider-scout, and that is at it is

Undead units

Dark adepts-piercer,they has no melee attack you need to be very careful with them.
ghost-scout/flanker,they have drain and a range attack this makes them a treat to almost any level 1 or 0 unit
ghoul-secondary melee unit, with its poison and appearance it can only be classified as JUST PLAIN NASTY!!!
skeleton-general melee unit, the back bone of most undead armies-pun entirely intended
skeleton archer-general range unit, their shooting has real substance pun also intended
vampire bat-scout not that strong and can't take any damage
walking corpse-secondary melee unit not that strong or healthy and even though their brains have rotted away they are still excellent multipliers

Knalga alliance

dwarfish fighter-general melee unit these guys are more like chefs they dish out nice servings of kick-***.
dwarfish guardmen- blocker guaranteed to annoy the crap out of your enemies due to the fact that they have the steadfast ability.
Dwarfish thunderer-piercer the original one hit wonder
dwarfish ulfserker-piercer they have a high casualty rate
footpad-flanker they have a decent range and melee attack
gryphon rider-scout/flanker do good melee damage but cost a lot
poacher-general range unit high number of strikes make this guy pretty strong
thief-flanker backstab makes their 4-3 into a powerful 8-3

Drakes

Drake burner- general range unit they have an awesome 6-4 attack
Drake clasher-general melee unit strong melee attacks and different kinds
Drake fighter-general melee unit a strong melee and a weak range
Drake glider- scout, okay attacks but not that strong
saurian auger-support unit supports your easy to hit flying monsters
saurian skirmisher-flanker it has a good melee and a weak range attack to kill the enemy with and can easily work in through enemy lines.

that is what I think each unit should be used for and in no great detail i will go into detail at a later date
Last edited by csparrow on June 8th, 2009, 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

ElvenKing
Posts: 105
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 7:02 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by ElvenKing »

Oh, I think there is sig worthy material here.
csparrow wrote:mage-secondary range unit
csparrow wrote:Dark adepts-secondary range unit
csparrow wrote:Wose-blocker the only way to kill they is to get your good ol' flamethrower out otherwise they are nearly impossible to kill
Definitely worthy of a signature.
Last edited by ElvenKing on June 8th, 2009, 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do."
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palloco
Posts: 136
Joined: April 3rd, 2004, 9:28 pm

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by palloco »

I dislike placing units in categories, as they are not unidimensional and what you are saying is basically what you learn after using the unit for the first time. But trying to follow that scheme I would change:
-Creating a category for a unit or 2 does not make sense. Support units are included in you definition of secondary.
-Blockers would be units that block enemy offensives.
-Dark adepts would be general range units (and piercers), as they are the most numerous unit in typical matches.
-Ghouls are blockers
-Shamans are blockers
-Units with magical attacks are piercers.

Im probably forgetting other points

Caphriel
Posts: 994
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by Caphriel »

ElvenKing, you could probably condense that into one quote with ellipses to make it less space-consuming of a sig :P

csparrow... Well, you covered pretty much the entirely obvious characteristics of most units. I was especially impressed by "Horseman-Piercer, they do tons of damage due to charge but take a lot of damage back", which is basically the definition of charge. In terms of basic unit roles, I'll settle for just pointing out that skeletons aren't the backbone of the undead army; dark adepts are. Many undead use the walking corpse as their primary melee unit. Ghouls are used to interfere with the enemy advance during the day. Ghosts can serve as blockers against enemies who have no arcane or fire damage available to attack them. Etc., etc., etc..

You pretty much entirely missed the nuances of unit roles based on who the enemy is. For example, against the drakes, the goblin spearman can compete with the grunt for the role of primary melee unit. Against the undead, however, they are much less useful. Again against the undead, a loyalist player might field more heavy infantry and less spearmen.

Although still incomplete and somewhat outdated, the How to Play series is still a valuable resource. You should probably read that, then search around and read other strategy discussions in order to avoid repeating topics covered in the past.

csparrow
Posts: 34
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 9:05 am

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by csparrow »

Caphriel wrote:ElvenKing, you could probably condense that into one quote with ellipses to make it less space-consuming of a sig :P

csparrow... Well, you covered pretty much the entirely obvious characteristics of most units. I was especially impressed by "Horseman-Piercer, they do tons of damage due to charge but take a lot of damage back", which is basically the definition of charge. In terms of basic unit roles, I'll settle for just pointing out that skeletons aren't the backbone of the undead army; dark adepts are. Many undead use the walking corpse as their primary melee unit. Ghouls are used to interfere with the enemy advance during the day. Ghosts can serve as blockers against enemies who have no arcane or fire damage available to attack them. Etc., etc., etc..

You pretty much entirely missed the nuances of unit roles based on who the enemy is. For example, against the drakes, the goblin spearman can compete with the grunt for the role of primary melee unit. Against the undead, however, they are much less useful. Again against the undead, a loyalist player might field more heavy infantry and less spearmen.

Although still incomplete and somewhat outdated, the How to Play series is still a valuable resource. You should probably read that, then search around and read other strategy discussions in order to avoid repeating topics covered in the past.


note that every thing I said have exceptions and are "in most cases"
goblin spearmen are to weak to be the main melee unit (in most cases).
skeletons are strong, walking corpses not strong,but cheap. I classified walking corpse because they can be weighted on heavily but are not good against a large variates of enemy units.
and the reason i made this thread is to combine the threads like "what is the use of fencers?"

any i was asleep when making it so i need to edit the original post :)

palloco wrote:I dislike placing units in categories, as they are not unidimensional and what you are saying is basically what you learn after using the unit for the first time. But trying to follow that scheme I would change:
-Creating a category for a unit or 2 does not make sense. Support units are included in you definition of secondary.
-Blockers would be units that block enemy offensives.
-Dark adepts would be general range units (and piercers), as they are the most numerous unit in typical matches.
-Ghouls are blockers
-Shamans are blockers
-Units with magical attacks are piercers.

Im probably forgetting other points
dark adepts aren't tough enough to be considered a general melee unit and they are used in more specialized ways.
support also include leadership units as well so right not there are not many support but when i get the list finished there will be plenty of them
and i see your point about ghouls.
and not all magical attacking units are pierces many fit right in with the secondary category because despite the magical ability and often high damage they still most of the time don't do enough damage to fully pierce enemy lines
Last edited by csparrow on June 8th, 2009, 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

Velensk
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Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by Velensk »

It's about usage not stats. In high level play you will commonly see more adepts than skelotons of either type despite the fact that they are quite clearly not a typical melee unit or a very tough unit.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

The Great Rings
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Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by The Great Rings »

Some units are multipurpose, or at least can be used as such by those who are short on gold. I wouldn't stick to these catagories too rigidly.
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ElvenKing
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Joined: February 7th, 2008, 7:02 am
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Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by ElvenKing »

csparrow wrote:dark adepts aren't tough enough to be considered a general melee unit and they are used in more specialized ways.
As Velensk wrote, it is not about defensive stats or how tough they are. Adepts are all about offensive power. They are used for one purpose: to blow your opponents units away. It is common in high level games for adepts to be the most common unit in the army. By far. You must use a lot of adepts, otherwise you will lack killing power. Adepts are quite possibly the most generally useful unit in the entire game. They are useful in every matchup.
"if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do."
Angel- Angel the Series

"Sore thumbs. Do they stick out? I mean, have you ever seen a thumb and gone 'wow, that baby is sore'?"
Willow Rosenberg- Buffy the Vampire Slayer

csparrow
Posts: 34
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 9:05 am

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by csparrow »

The Great Rings wrote:Some units are multipurpose, or at least can be used as such by those who are short on gold. I wouldn't stick to these catagories too rigidly.
EXACTLY!!!

all these categories are ment to do is to help with strategy building if you already have a good strategy then don't listen do what works for you.

as for dark adepts you all make good cases so i will put them under piercer
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

jmegner
Posts: 49
Joined: May 24th, 2009, 1:15 pm

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by jmegner »

csparrow wrote:and the reason i made this thread is to combine the threads like "what is the use of fencers?"
Should I have asked the question about fencers elsewhere?

csparrow
Posts: 34
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 9:05 am

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by csparrow »

no and it was a legitimate question, but now you don't need to ask those questions :D
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

jmegner
Posts: 49
Joined: May 24th, 2009, 1:15 pm

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by jmegner »

csparrow wrote:no and it was a legitimate question, but now you don't need to ask those questions :D
Ah. I was going to ask, "How can I beat Dauntless?" but there's no point now.

5dPZ
Posts: 201
Joined: July 11th, 2006, 7:20 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by 5dPZ »

Loyalist units

Bowman-ranged dmg, cheap-ass
Cavalryman-scout, non-pierce shield
Fencer-back-attack, death-finger, zoc
Heavy Infantry man-non elemental blocker, impact damage
Horseman-charger, scout
mage-magical dmg, fire dmg
merman fighter-water unit
spear man-melee dmg, cheap-ass

Rebel units

Elvish archer-ranged dmg, tree-hugger
Elvish Fighter-melee dmg, cheap-ass
Elvish Scout-scout, tree-hugger
Elvish Shaman-ranged blocker, slow, heal, tree-hugger
Mage-magical dmg, fire dmg
Merman hunter- water unit
Wose-impact dmg, non-fire blocker

Northerner units

goblin spear man-lv 0 spammer
naga warrior-water unit
orcish archer-ranged dmg, fire dmg
orcish assassin-poison
orcish grunt-melee dmg, super cheap-ass
troll whelp-impact dmg, non-magical blocker in hill/mountain
wolf rider-scout

Undead units

Dark adepts-magical dmg, cold dmg, cheap-ass
ghost-scout, non-fire blocker
ghoul-blocker, poison
skeleton-melee dmg, skeletal
skeleton archer-ranged dmg, skeletal
vampire bat-scout, lv 0, annoyer
walking corpse-lv 0 spammer

Knalga alliance

dwarfish fighter-melee dmg
dwarfish guardmen- blocker
Dwarfish thunderer-ranged dmg, RNG hugger
dwarfish ulfserker-ranged-unit killer
footpad-scout, blocker
gryphon rider-scout, flying, melee dmg
poacher-ranged dmg, swamp/forest hugger
thief-backstabber, cheap-ass

Drakes

Drake burner- ranged dmg, fire dmg
Drake clasher-melee dmg, blocker
Drake fighter-melee dmg, cheap?-ass
Drake glider- scout, impact dmg, marksman
saurian auger-magical dmg, cold dmg, heal
saurian skirmisher-back-attack, death-finger, zoc

jmegner
Posts: 49
Joined: May 24th, 2009, 1:15 pm

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by jmegner »

5dPZ wrote:...mage-magical dmg, fire dmg...
Do people not know we already have a resource for basic information with no analysis? http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.6/C/mainline.html

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Skrim
Posts: 312
Joined: June 10th, 2009, 7:19 am

Re: Tactical uses of units

Post by Skrim »

If I had to classify Wesnoth units, I'd do it this way:

Basic Melee:
- Spearman
- Elvish Fighter
- Orcish Grunt
- Dwarvish Fighter
- Drake Fighter
- Skeleton

Basic Ranged:
- Bowman
- Elvish Archer
- Orcish Archer
- Dwarvish Thunderer and Poacher
- Drake Burner
- Skeleton Archer

Scout:
- Cavalryman
- Elvish Scout
- Wolf Rider
- Gryphon Rider
- Drake Glider
- Vampire Bat

Mighty Glacier:
- Heavy Infantryman
- Wose
- Troll Whelp
- Dwarvish Guardsman
- Drake Clasher
- Ghoul

Fragile Speedster:
- Fencer
- Footpad and Thief
- Saurian Skirmisher
- Ghost

Glass Cannon:
- Mage and Horseman
- Elvish Shaman
- Orcish Assassin
- Dwarvish Ulfserker
- Saurian Augur
- Dark Adept

Zerg:
- Goblin Spearman
- Walking Corpse

Fish:
- Merman Fighter
- Merman Hunter
- Naga Fighter


:eng:
The first three are clear enough. After that, I'll give a brief explanation. Mighty glaciers are relatively slow-moving but tough and (mostly)hard hitting melee combat units capable of holding the line. Fragile speedsters are fast and dodgy units that don't do huge damage by themselves but can be used to go behind enemy lines and finish off injured units. Glass cannons are support units that can significantly bolster the force of which they are a part but cannot operate independently. They either do huge damage to the enemy, or support friendly units whilst disrupting opponents, and they always make good targets if left in the open. As for the last two classifications, they're pretty self-explanatory.

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