Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

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The Great Rings
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Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 10th, 2009, 7:58 am

Ok, I've tried this twice, and lost badly twice. My plan was to try rushing the north western troll and then defending that corner, since I didn't have the troops or gold to attack all at once. I lost horribly.

I have 200 starting gold and the following units immediately at the start of the scenario:

Grand Marshal Tallin (level 4)
1 Ancient Lich (level 4)
1 Lich (level 3)
1 Dwarvish Lord (level 3)
1 Great Mage (level 4)
1 Thug (level 1)
2 Mages of Light (level 2)

I have the following in my recall list:

2 Dwarvish Lords (level 3)
1 Highwayman (level 3)
2 Outlaws (level 2, one is ten xp from leveling)
3 Thugs (level 1)
1 Footpad (level 1)
1 Woodsman (level 0)
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 10th, 2009, 8:29 am

Did you get the Rod of Justice with Tallin?

Also, you probably should have kept a LOT more Dwarves from the earlier scenarios - they're extremely useful for most of this campaign, and will form the backbone of your final scenario.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 10th, 2009, 8:36 am

thespaceinvader wrote:Did you get the Rod of Justice with Tallin?
The Rod of what? I must have missed that. Which scenario is it in?
Also, you probably should have kept a LOT more Dwarves from the earlier scenarios - they're extremely useful for most of this campaign, and will form the backbone of your final scenario.
I've been taking heavy losses, but I probably should have made more of an effort to replace the dead troops sooner.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 10th, 2009, 9:00 am

In The Pursuit. You need to send Tallin with a group primarily of ranged units up the middle to the Great Chamber and kill all the spiders. Then send Tallin off down to the left through the passage to find the Rod. It becomes pretty vital in some later scenarios, this one included. You should also be picking up the free loyal spectre here, too - he can be found by sending a minimum of 3 level 1 and 2 ranged units straight down through that long passage. Kill the Deep Tentacles you'll find there, and send one guy down through the passage to the south. You'll find a village - capture it. Then bring everyone home. Ignore the northern passage - the Sea Serpent you'll find there is too hard to defeat in that environment. Apart from that one passage, it's important that you completely and fully explore this level - you can get a lot of XP from (carefully) killing the Death Knights who are scattered around, you need to get all the money chests, there are some free loyal Dwarves through the passage behind Krash etc etc etc.

TBH, you could possibly win with the units you've got. But I doubt it. You're drastically under-equipped. Go back to the first undead/caves scenario, and recruit and save a LOT more dwarves, and right through, a good few more units in general. Your recall list, by this stage, should eb jammed with level 3s, particularly on easy. You should be able to level masses of troops during the scenario immediately after The Pursuit, if you're careful about things there, similarly in the Save the Princess scenario.

You'd be well-advised to save and level (usually Royal Guard is the best route) Zlex, the loyal peasant from the first scenario, too.

It's unfortunate that you've managed to get to this point with so few units - I suspect that at this point it's basically unwinnable - my normal strategy for this fight would be to recall a collection of six level 3 dwarves, usually Lords, but maybe a couple of D'guards, and immediately send Tallin, the shyde, and maybe the Ancient Lich and/or the Spectre up to the Blue troll - if you move as far NW as possible with the quickest troops at your disposal in the first turn, you can ZoC the blue leader when he takes the village SE of his base, and kill him. The wiping up the rest of his troops won't be a problem, since the AL can use his drain attack, and the Shyde (and maybe the sorceress if you've managed to level her) can use slows and fire attacks. The you Put 4 of the dwarves on the bottom of the mountain range to the W, send 2 along with the WMs up to the line of mountains in the middle and defend from the green guys. You should then move the troops who were killing the blue guy, some down to help against black and purple, some across to help against green. By the time Krash comes back, you should really be basically on to the mop-up. Or did you lose him as well? If so, then you're pretty screwed, unfortunately.

This isn't an easy campaign. You have to play VERY carefully through a few scenarios to avoid coming out under-equipped.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 10th, 2009, 9:43 am

thespaceinvader wrote:In The Pursuit. You need to send Tallin with a group primarily of ranged units up the middle to the Great Chamber and kill all the spiders. Then send Tallin off down to the left through the passage to find the Rod. It becomes pretty vital in some later scenarios, this one included.
I sent some forces up their, but not a lot as I encountered no resistance and I had my hands full with the undead elsewhere. They walked right into the trap and were slaughtered. :cry: After that, I couldn't find a way into that cave again.
You should also be picking up the free loyal spectre here, too - he can be found by sending a minimum of 3 level 1 and 2 ranged units straight down through that long passage.
Got it, but it died in the next battle.
Kill the Deep Tentacles you'll find there, and send one guy down through the passage to the south. You'll find a village - capture it. Then bring everyone home. Ignore the northern passage - the Sea Serpent you'll find there is too hard to defeat in that environment.
I actually took it out, using the specter, a level three footpad I think, and a leveled up thug.
Apart from that one passage, it's important that you completely and fully explore this level - you can get a lot of XP from (carefully) killing the Death Knights who are scattered around, you need to get all the money chests, there are some free loyal Dwarves through the passage behind Krash etc etc etc.
I got the dwarves, and the money, and I don't think I missed any Death Knights. I largely just let the white mages who cannot be killed deal with them.
TBH, you could possibly win with the units you've got. But I doubt it. You're drastically under-equipped. Go back to the first undead/caves scenario, and recruit and save a LOT more dwarves, and right through, a good few more units in general. Your recall list, by this stage, should eb jammed with level 3s, particularly on easy. You should be able to level masses of troops during the scenario immediately after The Pursuit, if you're careful about things there, similarly in the Save the Princess scenario.
The scenario after pursuit was the big orc battle right? I screwed up early on by not protecting my wounded well enough, but in any case I was basically just throwing everything I had at the orcs. I still didn't kill them, though, so next time I'll play it defensively and not even try to take the orcs out.
You'd be well-advised to save and level (usually Royal Guard is the best route) Zlex, the loyal peasant from the first scenario, too.
Pretty sure he died a while back. In fact, I believe I have only one peasant left. Of course, peasants have a nasty habit of dying from a couple of blows, but next time I'll try to treat that one as carefully as I treat my leader.
It's unfortunate that you've managed to get to this point with so few units - I suspect that at this point it's basically unwinnable - my normal strategy for this fight would be to recall a collection of six level 3 dwarves, usually Lords, but maybe a couple of D'guards, and immediately send Tallin, the shyde, and maybe the Ancient Lich and/or the Spectre up to the Blue troll - if you move as far NW as possible with the quickest troops at your disposal in the first turn, you can ZoC the blue leader when he takes the village SE of his base, and kill him.
Almost managed that, but didn't have anything quite fast enough. Recruit griffons next time to hold him in place?

Also, how could I have both a sorceress and shyde? There's only one elf that's joined by this point, presuming I'd kept her alive.
The wiping up the rest of his troops won't be a problem, since the AL can use his drain attack, and the Shyde (and maybe the sorceress if you've managed to level her) can use slows and fire attacks. The you Put 4 of the dwarves on the bottom of the mountain range to the W, send 2 along with the WMs up to the line of mountains in the middle and defend from the green guys. You should then move the troops who were killing the blue guy, some down to help against black and purple, some across to help against green. By the time Krash comes back, you should really be basically on to the mop-up. Or did you lose him as well? If so, then you're pretty screwed, unfortunately.
Krash? Is that the crazy mage? Or is it the drake? In which case, why is that one drake such a critical unit?
This isn't an easy campaign. You have to play VERY carefully through a few scenarios to avoid coming out under-equipped.
I know. At least I'm past the point where I considered scenario four unbeatable. :D

So far I've made it to turn 13 out of 36 before the trolls overwelm me. I'm going to probably go back one scenario and try to save a few more units, and try using griffons to zoc the blue troll. But I refuse to go all the way back to the first few scenarios, even if I lost some valuable units back there.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 10th, 2009, 10:05 am

Yeah, the cave closes after you go into the chamber. You need to make sure you've got enough units present when it does - bring the Shyde, Tallin, maybe Zlex if he's not l3 yet and some thunderers and poachers and their advancements. Send one guy in to trigger the spiders, keep the rest in the passage before the chamber, run the guy back in as son as you've triggered the spiders. Keep a one-hex space free beside the two castle tiles, and tempt them in one at a time. You'll be able to lock them down and shoot them to bits. Use the healer to keep your forces fighting fit.

The spectre's HUGELY useful against trolls - like the Liches, it has a draining arcane attack, and is damn near invincible against trolls at all times of day. Keep it alive. It's also extremely useful in Save the Princess, since it's one of the few units you have which can cross Deep Water tiles, which makes life much easier when trying to get to the Princess.

Don't use the WMs once you've levelled them, apart from against Malifor - you're wasting valuable XP. You should only be giving XP to people who can use it wherever possible. Though in some cases, using them and letting them die (once they're MoLs) is better than losing an irreplaceable unit.

Yeah, the big orc battle. That one you should be playing defensively. Break out,, sure, but aim to defend the mountains. You'll be able to clean up most of the orcs, but you *CANNOT* win this one - if you expand too far, it triggers the appearance of Goblin Knights on pretty much all the mountain tiles you don't control. It's unbeatable, so play it for the XP. Don't let your units die, send in fresh ones. You have a lot of tactical flexibility with outlaws, loys and dwarves at your disposal. You should be able to hold the hills, and keep the orcs and trolls on the grass until you've broken them, then carefully expand out to mop them up. You won't be able to get the leaders, you'll trigger the goblin knights.

Yeah, anything loyal, as with any campaign, is loyal. Most peasant, you don't need to worry about. The one loyal one is a free recall in most scenarios, and is loyal. Never underestimate that. The first thing you should protect is any unit that loses you the game. Then anything loyal. Then anything with good traits - usually for me that's quick/resilient. Then anything that you can't replace - the Dwarves from The Pursuit onwards. Then anything with XP.

Tallin and the Spectre are fast enough between them, if you got the RoJ. So's the Shyde. But you need to move Talin as far north-west as you can as soon as you've recruited on the first turn, and it does rely on the Troll leader doing the right thing, but he pretty reliably does in my experience. Again, you've messed up early on - this scenario is simply unwinnable with what you've got. The Shyde is one of the units you rescue in The Pursuit. The Sorceress is the Princess from Save the Princess. using gryphons won't work - the trolls will slaughter them, and they're way too expensive. Remember that they're vulnerable to impact attacks, and the trolls are strong against blade. Apart from one place (save the princess, and then you can use other units) gryphons are entirely useless in this campaign. I haven't ever recruited more than one.

Krash is the drake. He appears to run off at the beginning of this scenario, but he comes back later as a player-controlled leader with Drake troops. He remains so for the remainder of the campaign. That's why he's vital.

Refuse to go back all you want. The game is unwinnable at present, and the only way to render it otherwise is to go back to The Pursuit at the LATEST, and make sure you don't lose too many Dwarves, and keep Abhai, Krash, the Shyde, various loyal units alive, get the Rod of Justice for Tallin... etc etc etc etc. You won't be able to win with what you have. This scenarios relies on a small corps of high-level, high-power units which you simply don't have.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by Velensk » May 10th, 2009, 11:01 am

Yeah, there is so much potential experiance in the pursuit with all those easily tricked draugs that you should be able to come out of it with over a dozen fugitives and a small army of leveled dwarves.

EDIT: Not to mention the level right afterwards where the whole point of it is to have the chance to level many units.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by palloco » May 10th, 2009, 12:10 pm

savegame?

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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 11th, 2009, 7:58 am

I went back a couple scenarios and replayed it with a different recall list (some griffons I think, a thunderer (level 2), and a Longbowman ended up in my force). However, I still couldn't zoc the troll even with a quick griffon, and this time around I lost the fire mage before hand. In the end, I beat it by replaying turn one until the lichs managed to take out the blue leader in one turn by luck, and defending the centre against the rest (I think the thunderer helped too).

Something odd happened in the next scenario, though. Around turn 35, the orcs looked like they were finally running out of troops, only recruiting a few a turn, etc. Then suddenly, out of nowhere, at the end of one turn they recruit about as many as at the start of the scenario; that is to say, dozens. I didn't know the AI hoarded gold, but I don't know how the hell else that could have happened.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by Velensk » May 11th, 2009, 10:59 pm

Many campaigns give the AI gold boosts partway through in part to punish those who advance to recklessly after they defeat the initial wave.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 12th, 2009, 7:42 am

I think (I'd have to check the WML to be sure) that there's a moveto event that gives the computer a big chunk of cash when you move to the base. You need to make sure you've got plenty to spare when you get there, so that you can use the size of their base against them, and recruit/recall units which will be basically sacrificial around the enemy leaders.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 12th, 2009, 9:05 am

Well, I hadn't entered the castle when it happened, and I'm replaying with units just as close, and so far nothing's happening. It must just happen after a certain amount of time passes.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 12th, 2009, 9:13 am

I checked - there's nothing in the .cfg about it. I guess the AI decides it's got enough units and saves some gold for when it's threatened.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by The Great Rings » May 12th, 2009, 10:17 am

Hmm, I wouldn't have credited the AI with that level of complexity. I suppose I may have underestimated it.
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Re: Help wanted with Northern Rebirth: Stolen Gold.

Post by thespaceinvader » May 12th, 2009, 10:22 am

I know - but equally, I've observed the same behaviour you have in the past, so...
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