what is the sense of "ghosts"

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JW
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by JW »

Mabuse wrote:- mages are THE units you wanna get if the enemy has skels (and maybe a hvy INf)
Maybe, but I love seeing Mages (or HI) as Undead. Recruiting a Ghost or 2 forces you to get at least 1 Mage. Now my overpowering Adept army will crush you at night.

Undead really are all about the Adepts. The other units are to force the opponents hand to something disadvantageous. Recruitng Ghosts, because of their resistancies and defense, is one of those manouvers to force a player's hand.

If you want a pure scout, get a bat.

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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Velensk »

You cannot deny that mages are a good buy against undead, JW. It may be that dark adepts are more efficent, however dark adepts are vulnerable to cavalry (who move faster, resist cold, and have high hp). As such dark adepts require support from various other units, all of which mages are good at killing.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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JW
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by JW »

Velensk wrote:You cannot deny that mages are a good buy against undead, JW. It may be that dark adepts are more efficent, however dark adepts are vulnerable to cavalry (who move faster, resist cold, and have high hp). As such dark adepts require support from various other units, all of which mages are good at killing.
Of course adepts need support. And we could play the 'well if A, then B' game all day. That's why it's played on the server and not on the forums. :)

IMO though, Mages (though necessary) are good to see because of their low hp/cost ratio. Easily killable targets always make me smile as a player.

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

JW wrote: Maybe, but I love seeing Mages (or HI) as Undead. Recruiting a Ghost or 2 forces you to get at least 1 Mage. Now my overpowering Adept army will crush you at night.

Undead really are all about the Adepts.
that makes absolutely no sense anyway. so you spend 40 gold for 2 ghosts, and i spend 20 gold for a mage ... and now your adept army is overpowerering ("at night" :lol2: :mrgreen: :augh: ).

lol. i cant see where this makes sense. at all.

and the other units (skels, ghouls) are not to force the enemy to buy something disadvantageous. they simply fullfill roles that adepts cant fullfill (and vice versa)

adepts cant retaliate melee. that means you cant engage a bug bunch of spearmans or (even at night) or grunts or whatever without taking potencial losses. and for that you need some melee blockers. 3 spearman at night (+leadership support) have a comfortable CTK on an adept. so you engage my spearman army (which is superior in numbers) and may lose 1 or more adepts right away. AT NIGHT.




JW wrote: IMO though, Mages (though necessary) are good to see because of their low hp/cost ratio. Easily killable targets always make me smile as a player.
well, since they are not easy killable, because they wont face you at night, i dont see the sense.
of course you can attack the mages at day with your adepts ....

as said against undeads i get a mage 100%, and surely not to give you an advantage, instead, this mage will remove bats, skels, ghouls, ghosts quite easily. and at day i even shoot an adept with it if needed.

the rest is cavalry (;) -
just for explanation:
as soon you see a lot of cavalry it means your adepts cant do [censored] anymore
(because cavalry has a solid cold resistance), and get beaten to a pulp AT NIGHT (and on the following day also, since your pity adepts cant even run away)


and spearman
if there are a good number of skels i wil have at least a hvyInf also
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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JW
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by JW »

Mabuse wrote:well, since they are not easy killable, because they wont face you at night, i dont see the sense.
of course you can attack the mages at day with your adepts ....
Well, since Mages have 24 hp for 20g, with 5mp smallfoot vs. 28hp for 16g with 5mp smallfoot.....

I'd say 'you do the math,' but I'll do it for you:

Day: 9-3 v 8-2; 27 v 16
mid: 7-3 v 10-2; 21 v 20
night: 5-3 v 12-2; 15 v 24

It doesn't matter when you run into adepts, 3 hits will have a good chance to kill a mage at day (disregard traits for now, as adepts get them too). That's 3/4, which has a 65.17% chance of happening (41.16% for 3/4 and 24.01% for 4/4). Mages will require at least 5 hits to kill an adept (if not day), which has a 42.02% chance of happening (30.25% of 5/6 and 11.76% for 6/6).

Since they have the same movetype and moves, let's assume they meet at mid. This gives 2 adepts 65% v 1 mage, and 2 mages a 42% chance v 1 adept. Adepts cost 80% of mages. Even if the mages strike first (in order take focus and kill one adept), the gold will still be in the UD player's favor.

Now...if you really want to continue to debate why I like seeing mages on the battlefield as an undead player I could keep breaking out statistics.

Mabuse wrote:as said against undeads i get a mage 100%, and surely not to give you an advantage, instead, this mage will remove bats, skels, ghouls, ghosts quite easily. and at day i even shoot an adept with it if needed.

the rest is cavalry (;) -
just for explanation:
as soon you see a lot of cavalry it means your adepts cant do s*** anymore
(because cavalry has a solid cold resistance), and get beaten to a pulp AT NIGHT (and on the following day also, since your pity adepts cant even run away)

and spearman
if there are a good number of skels i wil have at least a hvyInf also
And since you edited your post as I was typing a response.....
JW wrote:Of course adepts need support. And we could play the 'well if A, then B' game all day. That's why it's played on the server and not on the forums. :)
ps, for every mage/adept, I net 4g to spend on something else, in addition to having a better unit.

/edit:
Mabuse wrote: :lol2: :mrgreen: :augh:
Very convincing!!

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

JW wrote: ps, for every mage/adept, I net 4g to spend on something else, in addition to having a better unit.
according to your clever strategy to "force" the other player to buy mages by recruiting ghosts its +/- 0. rather than +4net anyway.


i dont even know why you compare MAGES and Adepts. nobody gets a mage to fight adepts.
mages will also never form the core of a loyalist army (core is always spearman and cav)

also you always forget leadership bonus, but loys have leadership

but mages can very well dish out the finsihing blow at day if it is needed.
your adepts can be fought with cavalry or spearman


JW wrote: Now...if you really want to continue to debate why I like seeing mages on the battlefield as an undead player I could keep breaking out statistics.
nah, pls not more of these statistics

else we end up with mag/adept and skel/spearman comparisons, and the big conclusion is that undead always win, because the loy was forced to recruit a mage to kil your ghost -
and for that enemy mage you get then +4 gold net because adpet is cheaper than mage .... :roll:
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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JW
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by JW »

My point is the factions are balanced. Adepts own things pretty hard, but they're very vulnerable and need protection.

You're being very annoying and sounding like an arrogant jerk in your posts - or perhaps I'm just reading into your " :roll: " too much.

Try being mature and reading through my logic - or do Loyalists always win because they have mages?

I guess you must be right. Go play some ladder games or something to prove to us how good you are.




--------------- :roll:

cmonyiman
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by cmonyiman »

It is pretty easy to understand that mages are used only at day, and if used correctly have very little to no chance to die (skeletons only do 5-3, though ghoul might be annoying), at night they are not used, or used carefully for a forced counterattack.

As for the topic, I never recruit ghosts except v knalgans, and I don't see any point to recruit v other factions. First of all, most people recruit at first turn mage/adepts/pyro/orcish archer, all of them are good v undead units & also v ghost, and given the proper ToD ghosts are killed pretty much instantly (and even if you retreat them and only attack at night with them, mages-pyros can kill it -if they hit ;))
It is better (for me) to recruit a bat with no upkeep, more MP, for 13g, and as annoying to kill as a ghost (needs 2-3 units to be killed), and spare my money for main attack power (skeletons, adepts)-as 4-3 (5 at night) for a 20g unit isn't very convincing when you have 2x better for -5g...
Also, a ghost has 36hp counting resistances, setting aside fire and arcane, and 36hp is the normal 12g, 14g, 15g unit base hp.
As it is weak and killed much too easily, for 20g, I personnally think it isn't worth it, apart v Knalgans where it can at least be fully used.
(edit) As for ghosts levelling up quickly, I prefer to level up a skeleton (21xp for ghost v 25xp for skelly), 8-5 (10-5 at night!) looks quite deadly.

silent
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by silent »

Mabuse wrote:
JW wrote: ps, for every mage/adept, I net 4g to spend on something else, in addition to having a better unit.
according to your clever strategy to "force" the other player to buy mages by recruiting ghosts its +/- 0. rather than +4net anyway.


i dont even know why you compare MAGES and Adepts. nobody gets a mage to fight adepts.
mages will also never form the core of a loyalist army (core is always spearman and cav)

also you always forget leadership bonus, but loys have leadership

but mages can very well dish out the finsihing blow at day if it is needed.
your adepts can be fought with cavalry or spearman
Since we wouldn't want to risk an adept during the day, why dare I ask would spearman be a core unit against undead when most undead have very good pierce resistance

And unless things have changed from 1.4.7 to 1.6 and loyalists can now recruit sergeants, and somehow manages to level one up into a lieutenant, what makes you think you can just keep sending your leader into combat when your keep could easily be far from the action?

Maybe I'm just making assumptions, but adepts exposed doesn't sound like something an undead player would normally do, making spearman a waste of 14g

as for cavalry, well the undead player could recruit skeleton archers which would be fairly effective on the offense, due to vulnerability against pierce

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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

JW wrote: Try being mature and reading through my logic - or do Loyalists always win because they have mages?
try being mature and read the whole topic. nobody said that loyalists always win.
instead someone "not so" experienced stated that you can recruit ghosts, to make the other players recruit mages and therefore you hve an advantage.

this is nonsense. which you and silent try to backup.
JW wrote: I guess you must be right. Go play some ladder games or something to prove to us how good you are.
why should i play ladder games ?
i can play a normal game anytime - perhaps we two play a round ?

i play once in a while versus ladder players anyway, though most of the time the "ladder players" seem not want to "waste" their time playing a normal game. :lol2:

so this is my offer: we play a 1v1, 2 games, each player can chose the map on which he want to play as player 2

ok, this doesnt nessessarily prove anything, but it would be fun nevertheless :D


silent wrote: And unless things have changed from 1.4.7 to 1.6 and loyalists can now recruit sergeants, and somehow manages to level one up into a lieutenant, what makes you think you can just keep sending your leader into combat when your keep could easily be far from the action?
experience.

for example if i defend at night versus undead, my units will be in my half of the map, and lieutenent has movement 6.

if i want the leadershp i will have it.
smart use of the leader is important

nuff said.....


ah well, since this seems also to be unclear:
Since we wouldn't want to risk an adept during the day, why dare I ask would spearman be a core unit against undead when most undead have very good pierce resistance
because spearman are very good blockers for low money.
they can hold a good def position (like city) against any undeads except adepts at night (at least for a round, then you can rotate), behind that spearman may be other units, like HI (oh you attacked with skels ?), cav (oh you attacked with adepts), or just another spearman i can pull from somewhere (hey, night is not over yet ?)

in any case having some spearman is a good thing, and at day (or night (doestn really matter) they can always find an adept to attack.

as said versus undead you want to get mages, cav, maybe HI or whatever, before you get more spearman, but having spears is always good
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

cmonyiman
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by cmonyiman »

This discussion is not about leaders... Second, if you say you have your lieut omnipresent, I'll say I have the 8-5 revenant (with 6mp as well), which will completely aniihilate your whole line of defense, allowing my adepts to kill your almighty lieutenant. Game over ;)

Don't think one second you can hold an undead attack with your spearmen...in such matchups loyalist retreats as far as possible for night and Undead as well for day (both make too much damage to the other side at right ToD)....if you can't retreat anymore, you can prepare yourself to have some losses...

Of course, everyone recruits mage v Undead (not only because of ghost! You can't kill skeletons/skeleton archers/ghouls with any other units (furthermore, mage kills them instantly) -besides HI which is too slow).. And they are not as easily killable as they seem to be...you won't be having often chances to kill it at night, and at day with 2 free hex, mage has low chances to die. I think the problem is it gets poisoned, and if you must heal it, it gets useless for the whole day attack.

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

1) revenants dont have 6 mp - -its deathbaldes that have 6 mp

2) we can play a 1v1 everytime, and you will see that i'll get a couple of spearman, which will work very very well.

3) you wil also see my leader supporting my units as well

eod from my side on that topic
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

cmonyiman
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by cmonyiman »

1. Did I say spearmen weren't good?
What you said was that you put spearmen as defensive unit at night v undead...(and you can counterattack with them at night :shock: )
2. Of course I meant the deathblade, I didn't remember that name (that's why I put the 8-5 before the revenant)

teg
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by teg »

Mabuse wrote:eod from my side on that topic
You already say something like that on the first page of the topic :wink:

The initial poster never replied so probably all our posts were not useful to him...
I hoped the thread would die but that didn't happened..

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JW
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by JW »

Mabuse wrote:try being mature and read the whole topic. nobody said that loyalists always win.
And I never said Undead always win. You put words in my mouth so I did the same to you. You obviously can't comprehend this.
instead someone "not so" experienced stated that you can recruit ghosts, to make the other players recruit mages and therefore you hve an advantage.
Oh, you mean me? :lol2:
i can play a normal game anytime - perhaps we two play a round ?
Sure. I said that earlier but you ignored it. Now all of a sudden you want to do it? Seems convenient when you're hurling insults around.
experience.

nuff said.....
:lol2:
because spearman are very good blockers for low money.
That's what skele archers are against your mage/cavalry scenario.....

And hey, Mabuse...what is that thing that makes you right and me wrong again?
experience.
:lol2:

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