what is the sense of "ghosts"

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fishb00n
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Joined: April 9th, 2009, 10:48 am

what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by fishb00n »

First of all: I´m completely new to this game. (playing for 2 weeks now). So please don´t laugh, maybe this question is the most stupid you´ve ever heard in this forum:
What is the sense of ghosts? (the 20-gold-thing of undeads)
Neither my friends nor I could figure that out until now.
Im sure we use them in a wrong way but, compared to other 20 gold units it looks like:
-they have low hp (nearly 1-hit for a 2-time attacking unit)
-they dont do damage compared to the other "20s"
-they dont hit their opponents very good
-the life leach is very small and only on melee-attacks
-ok, they move a little faster than the others

I hope anyone can give me a little hint, because I love the style of undeads and really want to "master" them.

HomerJ
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by HomerJ »

HP is compensated by resistances. They fly (kind of) which is a big advantage, their damage type is unusual. If you only have physical weapons available a ghost is hard to kill. Also, even if it doesn't sound like a reason for a unit to exist, take a look at its advancements and you will find yourself using ghost more than enough.

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HomerJ
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teg
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by teg »

Ghosts have a drain attack which make them resistant to standard melee units. Most of them including normal ranged units have a hard time against ghosts during the night. Try to kill a ghost with an ulfserker :wink: !
They can be used to lower the hp of standard units, to flank units (thanks to fly), to keep bad terrains (50% resistance everywhere), ...
There ranged attack is cold which few units are resistant to. Drakes are vulnerable to cold (but have fire ranged attacks to which ghosts are vulnerables).
Moreover, they are quite easy to level up and as HomerJ pointed out, they have interresting advancements.

I hope that can help you, you will probably find more useful advices than mine.

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Turuk
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Turuk »

Dated, but never a bad reference: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11150

I would suggest looking through which factions the Ghost is a good recruit against to get an idea of how to use it effectively.
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HomerJ
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by HomerJ »

teg wrote:Ghosts have a drain attack which make them resistant to standard melee units. Most of them including normal ranged units have a hard time against ghosts during the night. Try to kill a ghost with an ulfserker :wink: !
They can be used to lower the hp of standard units, to flank units (thanks to fly), to keep bad terrains (50% resistance everywhere), ...
There ranged attack is cold which few units are resistant to. Drakes are vulnerable to cold (but have fire ranged attacks to which ghosts are vulnerables).
Moreover, they are quite easy to level up and as HomerJ pointed out, they have interresting advancements.

I hope that can help you, you will probably find more useful advices than mine.
To avoid any confusion: when teg wrote resistant/resistance (which I highlighted) he did not mean the actual resistances, which are a measurement for the vulnerability of a unit towards a specific damage-type (blade/pierce/impact/fire/cold/arcane). He was just generally speaking about the ghost countering melee units or having a good defence (50% ctbh) respectively. Sorry if that was even confusing now, I did my best.

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Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

fishb00n wrote: What is the sense of ghosts? (the 20-gold-thing of undeads).
they're scouts.
dont get to many of them.

their use:
they are stronger than bats, while bats may avoid combat at any costs, you may be able to block with a ghost for example, or hunt down ulfserkers at night (or finsih a unit or whatever)
so if you have use for a stronger scout, than ghost is your choice.
(bats are really helpless in combat basically, while ghosts may actually participate (but be careful with it))


ghosts can be easily killed by:
all sort of ranged units
high damage melee units
(given the proper ToD)

in any case you figured already out that they are not very useful to be used as a core unit ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

TromboneStar
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by TromboneStar »

I would also like to add the psychological effect of ghosts on human players.
Usually, when human players see a ghost, they would be tempted to recruit mages or other ghost-busting units.
Mages cost 20 gold as well and are good targets for melee units such as the skeleton to hunt them down.

So by recruiting a ghost, you force your opponent to diversify their army, which may create weaknesses for you to exploit.

Joe1
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Joe1 »

First off, they are a bugger to kill. Second, they do have drain and considering that 80% of all units have melee as their MAIN attack and 95% of all units have melee attack the drain is a nice feature. And also... ever find that ulfserker really annoying? Well just move ur ghostie on over, give it a swing and the ulfserker is a bit less alive than it was before ;) Plus ghosts move fast, you can use them to flank your enemies on water since they hover. But the best thing about ghosts is what they level into. And if a ghost kills like three things it can level into a wraith/shadow. I mean in MANY games where I used ghosts if it was free for all I had no trouble getting that ghost levelled to a Spectre which has all the qualities of a ghost multiplied by about ten. A ghost is a REALLY good unit. That's why they cost a lot XD

Edit: Oh and the fact that they have drane-arcane melee isn't so bad either. That arcane can really come in handy if u don't wanna recruit mages that will get offed by a shock trooper on turn two.

TromboneStar wrote:I would also like to add the psychological effect of ghosts on human players.
Usually, when human players see a ghost, they would be tempted to recruit mages or other ghost-busting units.
Mages cost 20 gold as well and are good targets for melee units such as the skeleton to hunt them down.

So by recruiting a ghost, you force your opponent to diversify their army, which may create weaknesses for you to exploit.
Hm very good idea lol. Never really thought about that. I mean with undead (perhaps one of the hardest factions to play correctly) psychology IS a big factor. For instance you can use your bats to do all kinds of crazy stuff. I mean a good 2/3 games that I play with undead I use my bats to take at least 7 enemy villages (some are taken twice) And just when your opponent sees you flyin' bats at them they have to think a bit more about what they do.
Last edited by Joe1 on April 11th, 2009, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

TromboneStar wrote: Usually, when human players see a ghost, they would be tempted to recruit mages or other ghost-busting units.
Mages cost 20 gold as well and are good targets for melee units such as the skeleton to hunt them down.
So by recruiting a ghost, you force your opponent to diversify their army, which may create weaknesses for you to exploit.
mages make short of skeletons.

mages are a very good unit versus any undead unit (skels, ghouls, bats, ghosts) except adepts (at night)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

Joe1 wrote: Edit: Oh and the fact that they have drane-arcane melee isn't so bad either. That arcane can really come in handy if u don't wanna recruit mages that will get offed by a shock trooper on turn two.
umm, you mean - adepts are very good to kill shock troopers, right ?
because that is how it works in the game. ;)

your mages (adepts) will own shocktroopers
Joe1 wrote: I mean a good 2/3 games that I play with undead I use my bats to take at least 7 enemy villages (some are taken twice) And just when your opponent sees you flyin' bats at them they have to think a bit more about what they do.
... lol
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

silent
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by silent »

@ Mabuse: He means when skeletons are attacking the mages, the mages are then in strife. Also it takes at least 2 mages to kill a skeleton a night, and that 70% is FAR from guaranteed, which means a line of advancing skeletons at night would be trouble.

And ghouls are only vulnerable against impact, they have resistance to everything else including fire and arcane.

And against elves a ghost is good since elves are vulnerable to arcane (asides from the adept)

randomdragoon
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by randomdragoon »

silent wrote:And against elves a ghost is good since elves are vulnerable to arcane (asides from the adept)
Too bad the -10% resistance isn't enough for a Ghost to do any additional damage (4*1.1=4.4, rounds down, 4*1.25*1.1=5.5, which still rounds down due the rule of "round .5's towards the base damage")

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

silent wrote:@ Mabuse: He means when skeletons are attacking the mages, the mages are then in strife. Also it takes at least 2 mages to kill a skeleton a night, and that 70% is FAR from guaranteed, which means a line of advancing skeletons at night would be trouble.
sure. if oyu have a ghost AND a line of skeletons, while i have only a lonely mage, then i am in trouble :lol2:. i agree

and the 3 strikes a skel have on a mage at 50% is of course a sure kill, i know ....

seriously, your line of skels is stopped by 2 HI from advancing anywhere

and why do i read "at night", mages ARE USUALLY NOT used at night anyway, since they are lawful. its a big waste to use a mage at night and risk getting him killed
silent wrote: And ghouls are only vulnerable against impact, they have resistance to everything else including fire and arcane.
well, you actually should play the game perhaps then

- ghouls have just 33HP
- ghouls have just 10% fire resist
- ghouls cant retaliate against ranged
- mages hit with 70%

and now tell me that mage isnt useful versus ghouls. sure its better to place a ghoul instead of a skeleton to defend, but that doesnt change the fact that the mages will pound hard at the ghouls, even more with daylight and leadership support
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

silent
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by silent »

Mabuse wrote:
silent wrote:@ Mabuse: He means when skeletons are attacking the mages, the mages are then in strife. Also it takes at least 2 mages to kill a skeleton a night, and that 70% is FAR from guaranteed, which means a line of advancing skeletons at night would be trouble.
sure. if oyu have a ghost AND a line of skeletons, while i have only a lonely mage, then i am in trouble :lol2:. i agree

and the 3 strikes a skel have on a mage at 50% is of course a sure kill, i know ....

seriously, your line of skels is stopped by 2 HI from advancing anywhere

and why do i read "at night", mages ARE USUALLY NOT used at night anyway, since they are lawful. its a big waste to use a mage at night and risk getting him killed
silent wrote: And ghouls are only vulnerable against impact, they have resistance to everything else including fire and arcane.
well, you actually should play the game perhaps then

- ghouls have just 33HP
- ghouls have just 10% fire resist
- ghouls cant retaliate against ranged
- mages hit with 70%

and now tell me that mage isnt useful versus ghouls. sure its better to place a ghoul instead of a skeleton to defend, but that doesnt change the fact that the mages will pound hard at the ghouls, even more with daylight and leadership support
Next time before you try and be smart, consider that I actually do play the game, granted I'm not an undead player.

And if you're going to be smart about going to talk about variables, then how about I throw some adepts into the equation and we'll say see ya later to those HI, and then skeletons cut through the next line of defense and that your leadership unit cannot afford to leave his keep since we're on a long map without keeps in between the start keep.

And you should also learn not to make assumptions. No where did I say ghouls were awesome against mages, I only made a statement stating you forgot those resistances.

Point taken on the ghost/elf argument though.

Next time, rather than assume, actually have a read of what I posted thanks

Mabuse
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Re: what is the sense of "ghosts"

Post by Mabuse »

silent wrote: Next time before you try and be smart, consider that I actually do play the game, granted I'm not an undead player.
yeah, so you are not playing undead, but take position for them
(or rather try to back up the statement that getting ghosts will confuse the other players, who will get then mages, which are then a weakness for other undead - because "skels will hunt them down" (lol, how can skels hunt down mages anyway))
silent wrote: And if you're going to be smart about going to talk about variables, then how about I throw some adepts into the equation and we'll say see ya later to those HI, and then skeletons cut through the next line of defense
lol, you are throwing more and more variable sint the equation ;) you just dont seem to realize it.

first undead had a ghost, the other had a mage.
then you throw in " a line of skeletons"
then i put two hvyInf there

and now you come with adepts. :lol2:

Seriously, wheres the point ?
at that point the game is being played as ususal and my units keep themsleves out of the range of the adepts of course. you know ToD-change and stuff. ;)

some nonsens like "but when a skel attacks a mage at night, the mage is in trouble", doesnt matter anyway, since it simply wont happen.
silent wrote: And you should also learn not to make assumptions. No where did I say ghouls were awesome against mages, I only made a statement stating you forgot those resistances.

Next time, rather than assume, actually have a read of what I posted thanks
lol, if you woud have actually read SOMETHING before taking position for complete nonsens.

Getting mages against undeads is one of the best things someone can do.

now you pop up and say "hey if skeletons hack mages at nights the mages will get hurt"
fact is: that wont happen anyway. the mages will attack at day and kill any skeletons in their path easily

next point is you're talking about ghould resistances. i just pointed out that they dont matter anyway. now you say i "forgot" about them. no, of course i didnt forget about them. its just that they dont matter. a ghoul wont stand longer than a 39 HP spearman against mages.

as a matter of fact no enemy player will get confused by an undead who gets ghosts, because a good counter for ghosts are mages, and surprise surprise, mages are good versus all kind of undeads units also

so next time you post something you may read the whole thread before you post somehting that is completely redundant. its kinda absurd to say "hey undead may exploit that enemy bought mages, because i attack them with skeletons". what a nonsense.

- mages are THE units you wanna get if the enemy has skels (and maybe a hvy INf)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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