If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

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Nubie
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If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Nubie » April 7th, 2009, 8:58 pm

Or Plain and Water.

Which one do you count as defense and which one as movement?

From what I understand its first as defense and second as movement?

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zookeeper
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by zookeeper » April 7th, 2009, 9:07 pm

Each combination terrain defines how it works.

River ford uses best defense and best movement of shallow water and flat. Snow forest uses best defense and worst movement of snow and forest. Water village uses water defense and water movement. Rockbound cave uses best defense and worst movement of cave and hills.

Nubie
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Nubie » April 7th, 2009, 9:33 pm

I see :o

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Lizard
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Lizard » April 7th, 2009, 9:35 pm

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Daedal
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Daedal » April 8th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Nubie wrote:I see :o
I agree with this reaction. Double tiles are nifty, but confusing. I think there ought to be a single, simple rule regarding these tiles to bring them in line with the K.I.S.S. philosophy of BfW.

Velensk
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Velensk » April 8th, 2009, 2:26 pm

The rule is "Use common sense."
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Daedal
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Daedal » April 9th, 2009, 1:42 pm

zookeeper wrote:Each combination terrain defines how it works.

River ford uses best defense and best movement of shallow water and flat. Snow forest uses best defense and worst movement of snow and forest. Water village uses water defense and water movement. Rockbound cave uses best defense and worst movement of cave and hills.
Velensk wrote:The rule is "Use common sense."
Fording a river is slower than moving across flat terrain.
If you're fighting from a village, which gives you cover, shouldn't you be better protected than in open water?
Rockbound cave and snow forest make sense to me.

It's probably all good enough if the values are well documented somewhere, but I don't think common sense applies since we can't even get two people to agree on what values make sense.

Joram
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Joram » April 9th, 2009, 5:27 pm

Shallow water is water that comes up to a human's waist, so technically, shallow water is what would normally be considered a "ford" (? I don't really know what I'm talking about here ?)

Fords, on the other hand, are even shallower. Extremely shallow. I get the impression that they are about as deep as a human's knees, or even less; making crossing them a trivial matter, and certainly not as difficult as plowing through water up to your waist.

As far as the water villages, they are different from a village on the water. They are a village in the water. If you look at the picture, they are almost entirely submerged. That is why you get no defensive bonus. (on the other hand, there are villiages in swamp which are actually sitting above the swamp; such villages give their defensive bonus).
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Daedal
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Daedal » April 13th, 2009, 12:09 pm

Is it documented that shallow water is water that comes up to the waist? As for fords, it's not so much the depth of the water that's tricky as it is other factors. If you live in the northern hemisphere it should be spring for you right now, which probably means there's a good running stream somewhere near your home. Try to cross it without falling over. :D And as for submerged villages, I'd argue that any place you can find cover is going to give you a major advantage as long as you're a race that's somewhat comfortable in water. Dwarves might have a tough time, humans and elves not so much.

Joram
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Joram » April 13th, 2009, 6:03 pm

I believe that the documentation for the depth of shallow water is in the manual.

As for your other points, you have some good ones. I guess I just have a very active ability to suspend my disbelief. :)
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Kamamura
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Kamamura » April 16th, 2009, 1:53 pm

I believe that the "common sense" argument is totally irrelevant.

First, you have the WINR principle which invalidates it completely. But even if it wasn't for WINR, what IS a common sense in relation to wesnoth? The fact that a given terrain gives you an uniform defensive bonus regardless of the type of combat does not make much sense to me. I understand that I can take cover from arrows inside buildings and behind trees, but what sense does cover have in hand-to-hand combat?

In relation to the double terrain hexes, how does a village submerged in a waist-high water look like? Is it a collection of tree stumps, or snake-holes? :roll: Only after we agree on this point, we can theorize (read fantasize) about how it could possibly affect your ability to ward off a sword blade or an arrow (wait - wesnoth depicts skirmishes of individuals rather than units, right?)

Common sense, phew... :roll:

randomdragoon
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by randomdragoon » April 16th, 2009, 2:03 pm

Oh, I rationalized water villages as "it would be more interesting this way" and left it as that.

This was before I actually ran into one. I was thinking, "Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a village type that was difficult to defend?"

Velensk
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Velensk » April 16th, 2009, 7:32 pm

Kamamura wrote:I believe that the "common sense" argument is totally irrelevant.

First, you have the WINR principle which invalidates it completely. But even if it wasn't for WINR, what IS a common sense in relation to wesnoth? The fact that a given terrain gives you an uniform defensive bonus regardless of the type of combat does not make much sense to me. I understand that I can take cover from arrows inside buildings and behind trees, but what sense does cover have in hand-to-hand combat?

In relation to the double terrain hexes, how does a village submerged in a waist-high water look like? Is it a collection of tree stumps, or snake-holes? :roll: Only after we agree on this point, we can theorize (read fantasize) about how it could possibly affect your ability to ward off a sword blade or an arrow (wait - wesnoth depicts skirmishes of individuals rather than units, right?)

Common sense, phew... :roll:
That's why I said use common sense and not logic. Logic does not work in Wesnoth, as the scale is entirly abstract. It is not representing individual combat, or unit combat, or maybe it is representing both at once. Either way, I don't claim that everything makes sense, however using your sense will handle most terrains.

-Some water villages are above water, and give the impression of having a bridge network, others appear to be mostly underwater. Which one would be hard for land units to get to and defend?
-If snow covers a forest, and you move fast through forest, but slow through snow do you use your forest speed or your snow speed? At the same time if you defend yourelf horribly in snow feilds, and well in forests which defence do you use when you are in a snow covered forest?
-Most villages (with the exception of the submerged ones) have enough inferstructure that you can move through them as if on road. However a village in the hills, is still in the hills even if it has roads and inferstruture thus units that defend hills can fight as though in the hills, and units that defend villages better than hills can defend a village rather than hills.
-Fords indicate very shallow water that can be crossed fairly easily (easy is relative). In wesnoth this means that land units can move through them as they would grassland. Apparently however it is also still deep enough that mermen can defend/move through it easy (like I said, dosn't make sense however you can work with it).
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AThousandYoung
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by AThousandYoung » April 17th, 2009, 8:03 pm

Kamamura wrote:The fact that a given terrain gives you an uniform defensive bonus regardless of the type of combat does not make much sense to me. I understand that I can take cover from arrows inside buildings and behind trees, but what sense does cover have in hand-to-hand combat?
Well, in a fortress there are murder holes and the like.

Gwilendiel
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Re: If there's two tiles...for example a Village and Water

Post by Gwilendiel » April 18th, 2009, 1:17 am

Kamamura wrote:what sense does cover have in hand-to-hand combat?
A lot of sense, actually... :D
Especially with 'fantasy' or ancient style weaponry (swords, shields and spears)

Like fighting in a tight area like a gate or a hallway would limit swinging weapons like swords... but straight thrust attacks with spears could be an advantage there because they have more lateral reach, but it would be harder to turn around with a spear etc..

Also like if you have a sword in your right hand and a shield in your left, and theres a boulder near you to your right, you could attack and then move near the boulder to use it to guard your open side... so you would be protected on your left by your shield and the boulder helps block attack from your right.

Lots of things can be used that way, really.

Edit: and also... morale could play a factor too, since as mentioned above Wesnoth is abstract... so for example with Mermen getting the water bonus on a ford, it might not even be so much a physical bonus of having water that is deep enough to be an advantage, it could also be just a more secure feeling for them to have water nearby. Or elves feel stronger in forests, dwarves feel vulnerable on plains, or whatever, either regardless of or even including actual defensive value.

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