Siege of Elensefar Too Hard

[Dameon]

When I first played Wesnoth (on normal difficulty), I didn't focus on upgraded units; when my units died I simply moved on and didn't really have serious problems. By the time I got to this scenario, I didn't have very many level 2 units, and it seemed like the AI in this scenario had a fair number of them, plus good defensive ground of course. I got my rear end handed to me repeatedly by the level 2s in the city (or managed to barely beat them before the undead showed up to lay the smack down) and got frustrated enough that I simply quit playing Wesnoth for awhile.

When I came back to try Wesnoth again (again on normal), I decided to use the method I do now- focus on keeping upgraded units by reloading turns during battles if they die. Doing this, I had a good number of level 2s coming into this battle, and while it was still challenging (I did end up using some mermen/thieves as cannon fodder) I was actually able to beat it without too much stress this time around. I figured that the rest of the campaign would be like that- the AI having lots of upgraded units. So, I made it my strategy to maintain mine at all costs. I have since discovered at I play through HttT that this is simply not the case, the AI uses a good mix of upgraded units and new ones in future scenarios. I'm sticking with my strategy of preserving my upgraded units though, simply because for all I know I may run into another scenario like Elensefar.

I like having a challenge, but placing a scenario this difficult so early in the primary campaign seems to me to be a bad idea. Obviously I'm not the first one to say this, and I guarantee you that a battle this difficult is causing some people to quit playing Wesnoth. It's far enough into the campaign that nobody wants to go back and start the game over on Easy (assuming they are even playing on Normal) and it's just a ridiculous difficulty spike compared to previous scenarios. It makes no sense, either, because the rest of the battles in the campaign after this scenario (at least so far, and I am most of the way through) are nowhere near this difficult. I am all for keeping this scenario (it is well designed overall), but to me it would make much more sense to either soften the difficulty or move it to a point much later in the campaign overall and adjust the units to maintain a similar difficulty if that is the desire. As it stands now, I'm simply going to avoid this particular scenario at all costs when I come back to play through on challenging.

[Velensk]

Personaly I think that it's a very good thing to have a challanging scenario early in a campaign. This scenario is the Wesnoth equivalent to a 'wake-up boss', if you have just been bouncing through the levels without preparing then yes it's going to kill you. However it's a level that says that if you want to play Wesnoth you have to think. If people give up easily upon realising this, that is their problem.

That being said, once you've gotten good at the game Seige of Elensefar isn't that hard a scenario and can easily be beaten without doing any save loading on it or in the previous scenarios. There was a thread about this level recently with some replays of Siege of Elensefar on hard.

[Max]

I like having a challenge, but placing a scenario this difficult so early in the primary campaign seems to me to be a bad idea. Obviously I'm not the first one to say this, and I guarantee you that a battle this difficult is causing some people to quit playing Wesnoth.

i also think that it's a good idea to give users an impression of how hard the campaign is early on. it would rather cause frustration if the difficulty was only raised significantly when you're half through the campaign.

When I first played Wesnoth (on normal difficulty), I didn't focus on upgraded units

i know that hurts, but when a campaign is being balanced the author assumes that you managed to have decent recruits available later on in the campaign.

I decided to use the method I do now- focus on keeping upgraded units by reloading turns during battles if they die

but that really gets boring - i've been there^^ just restart the campaign, maybe play it on easy.

[Joram]

I think that the OP has a good point about the jump in difficulty on the level being rather extreme. IIRC, the last time I played HttT, every level up through Muff Malal's Penninsula was a piece of cake. I then had to try a couple of times to get Elensfar.

Perhaps increase the Bay of Pearls difficulty a tad? To let the player know that tough stuff is on the way and that they need to save units? (though I seem to remember there being a few Orcish Warriors in The Bay)

[dragontamer]

Well, there was some warning that upcoming stages were going to get much harder IIRC. Maybe it would help if those Thieves you got were all lvl 2 for the ambush. Its not like they could assassinate a lvl 3 leader on his 60% Keep when they're surrounded by Skeletons, and it would give the new player some guaranteed lvl 2 units (granted, they're about to be flanked by both Skelitons and Orcs...) as well as buy some time for the player's main forces.

I mean, consider what the player has if he only has lvl 1 units. Thieves may have 60% defense on plains, but they're 2-hit KOed by warriors and have no counter-attack vs Crossbowmen. Mermen Fighters have 60% defense in the water, but are 3-hit KOed at night (4-hit KOed otherwise). Also, they are a bit slow on land, so they might not make it to the river before the Orcs, and reinforcements are going to be slow.

Without changing the map too much... just adding in a stream or a few swamps in the south for Mermen to run off too might be all the player needs. Fresh Mermen are looking at a 53% chance of to survive at dawn/dusk, and a 23% chance of survival at night if attacked by only 2 orcish warriors. So it is still going to be hell, but at least now the player can have water or some swamps behind the lines so that Shamans can heal up the lucky survivors and more easily prepare for a second line or mermen warriors.

Just a minor tweek, but it should help. Its not like Mermen Warriors are going to have an easy time against Poison Marksmen Assassins, or counter those Crossbowmen anyway.

[Joram]

I'd actually support a change to make mermen more useful regardless of whether the scenario is balanced or not. It irks me to be able to recruit a unit that is only useful in maybe 3 scenarios? Especially when you get a bunch of loyal ones.

[Velensk]

The merman with the storm triton is already usefull. It takes him a couple turns to make it to the water, but that isn't much of a problem because your probably don't want to attack on the first three turns anyway.

As for the thieves, they arn't supposed to be able to assassinate the orcish leader, that would be too easy.

[Higher Game]

It's a symptom of the game requiring far too much experience for units to level. A mage in a very well played position might have just a 10% chance of dying over a 2-3 turn engagement or so. With 60 experience required to level, it's going to run quite a gauntlet of 10% chances before getting stronger, and there's a very high chance it won't make that gauntlet. In theory, the long run should even out bad luck, but in reality, a bad luck spell very early on can ruin long term chances; a campaign is really no different from a single map in that regard.

Doom is a game with the right idea: you can haul weapons and armor from level to level, but each level is actually designed such that a pistol start is winnable (yes, even Plutonia). To this day, good Doom modders and level designers work with that philosophy.

In general, campaign maps on average difficulty should be winnable with minimum gold and level 1 units. If people think this is too easy then they should move up to higher difficulties.

[Jozrael]

In general, campaign maps on average difficulty should be winnable with minimum gold and level 1 units. If people think this is too easy then they should move up to higher difficulties.

I absolutely disagree. I don't even think easy campaigns should be winnable later in the scenarios without a recall list (and minimum gold). The point is to teach the player skills by gradually ramping up the difficulty. If it was possible to win with the absolute worst set of conditions possible, that trivializes the average case conditions, and -bores- the player that has performed above average for their difficulty level.

There is an easy difficulty level for a reason. "Medium" should not be cakewalk IMO

[mcv]

I had to replay Siege of Elensefar completely just to turn one of my knights into a paladin in order to deal with the undead.

After a long run of trivially easy scenarios (at Medium), I was glad to finally have a real challenge.

What worries me more is the difficulty of the very first scenario (The Elves Besieged, I think?). I replayed that one a dozen times before I finally figured it out. And I still lost units and didn't get any level up. That one should be a bit easier, anything between that and the undead island just before Elensefar could be a lot harder. The undead island itself is about right.

[Wintermute]

What worries me more is the difficulty of the very first scenario (The Elves Besieged, I think?). I replayed that one a dozen times before I finally figured it out. And I still lost units and didn't get any level up. That one should be a bit easier, anything between that and the undead island just before Elensefar could be a lot harder. The undead island itself is about right.

Is it fair to say that you learned a lot about what units need to be protected at all costs, which are expendable and how to do that in that first scenario? Because mastering those ideas before moving on will save much heartache down the road. When I first started playing I also replayed it several times, because I hadn't learned much about the Wesnoth mindset yet. As you become more experienced, you will look back on that scenario as a great opportunity to level up two units much of the time, or almost one unit with some bad luck. I think scenarios like that and SoE do a great job of really forcing players to realize how different Wesnoth is from many of the games they have played before. SoE requires REAL planning (and planned, expendable losses) to win at the higher levels in most cases.

And if you are complaining about mermen not being useful and that this scenario is too hard... well, there is your hint right there...

[mcv]

And if you are complaining about mermen not being useful and that this scenario is too hard... well, there is your hint right there...

I didn't actually get much use out of my merman in SoE. I recalled one, and he takes time to finally reach the water. He did make a few attacks on skeletons that another unit wouldn't have been able to do, but mermen really don't seem to be all that useful in scenarios where water is not the main focus.

[Turuk]

but mermen really don't seem to be all that useful in scenarios where water is not the main focus.

[dragontamer]

The merman with the storm triton is already usefull. It takes him a couple turns to make it to the water, but that isn't much of a problem because your probably don't want to attack on the first three turns anyway.

Talking about the storm triton... newbies probably don't know about the existence of items. The Scenario needs to point it out somehow. (Maybe a Merman can say "We've been searching for the legendary storm triton" or something).

Anyway, I think the map needs to be rebalanced with the addition of Orcish Assassin Marksmanship. Marksmanship + Poison really make the game harder, and remove the advantages of Merfolk in this stage. (unless it already was rebalanced?).

Also, I think the first Scenario isn't really that bad. Intimidating, yes, but at least in 1.6, your allies seem to hold them off pretty well. Just run like a coward, sacrifice a unit or two, and you'll escape in time.

As for the thieves, they arn't supposed to be able to assassinate the orcish leader, that would be too easy.

I know. Although, I just ran a number-crunch and apparently 4 rogues can... So ignore that point, it does probably make it too easy. Nonetheless, I currently find the Thieves next to useless in that chapter. Skeletons have blade resistance and Orcs 2-hit KO Thieves at night. There are a ton of units, meaning that most likely a "line" has been formed (probably in the water with Mermen, which seems to be the point of this scenario). So "Backstab" doesn't seem too useful either.

[Wintermute]

I know. Although, I just ran a number-crunch and apparently 4 rogues can... So ignore that point, it does probably make it too easy. Nonetheless, I currently find the Thieves next to useless in that chapter. Skeletons have blade resistance and Orcs 2-hit KO Thieves at night. There are a ton of units, meaning that most likely a "line" has been formed (probably in the water with Mermen, which seems to be the point of this scenario). So "Backstab" doesn't seem too useful either.

Have you tried using the theives to take villages from the orcs? The orcs might become distracted and split their force, or if left alone there are lot of villages to take... This works particularly well if you view them as expendable...