Faction/leader choices - random?

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leftylink
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Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by leftylink » November 20th, 2008, 10:09 am

Hey everyone,

Picked up this game a while ago. Great work, I like it. I've been playing a few campaigns, but am thinking of delving into multiplayer. I'm reading a few things about faction choices (Default era of course), and it seems that it's generally agreed that the factions are pretty well balanced. It seems advantageous to me to learn each faction's playstyle and be able to use it. Is it a good idea to pick random? Do many players choose random faction?

If you choose your faction, is there a commonly accepted "best" leader for each faction?

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TheMasterOfBattle
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by TheMasterOfBattle » November 20th, 2008, 2:36 pm

Well, I usually don't go random. However, going random has several advatages. If you go random, your oppenent does not know wat faction you are and must recruit a variety of units to be usuful for any faction you may be. If you choose your faction and your oppenent goes random, then you have to have a variety of recruits while your oppenent can recruit units that are tailored to combat your chosen faction.

As for best leader for a faction (note this is from my opinion, it may differ from many other people), some of the choices are easily made, others not so much.

For Loyalists the choice is easy, the Lieutanent is the best with his 6 mp and leadership.

For Drakes the choice is again easy, the Drake Flare.

For Undead, the Dark Sorcerer is probably the best choice.

For Knaglans, I think either the Thunderguard or the Rogue or good choices.

For Northerners, the Orcish Warrior or the Rocklobber is probably best.

For Rebels, the Elvish Captain, Red Mage, and Elvish Sorceress are all good choice.

Pedrao
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by Pedrao » November 20th, 2008, 2:43 pm

Sorry but although I have been laying for a while now, I am still a noob so all I will say here is either what you already know or useless advice that can be ignored
:eng:
once you bgin on multiplayer, try to play with your friends and using a faction you already know
random can put you in severe disadvantages if you havent used a determined faction before
e.g. if you only played rebels and loyalists campaigns and end up having to use Knalgan against an experienced player you will most likely loose and be disencouraged

always try to learn a bit about each faction before you play with it (it sure does help) play some campaigns as they help understanding how each faction works

as for the leader, i am not very sure wether there is a better one out of each faction, mostly depends on your playing style (as does the choice of facton)

(just one last thing: if you have some experience, random can be quite fun)

roadkill
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by roadkill » November 20th, 2008, 4:27 pm

If you know all the default units pretty well and can use all factions I think going random gives you a significant advantage.

As for best leaders its not an easy choice.

Some people like a heavy hitter, some people like lots of hp & high defense, some people like healers or leaders. I don't think any are generally regarded as best. Personally I always pick a healer.

csarmi
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by csarmi » November 21st, 2008, 1:17 pm

"once you bgin on multiplayer, try to play with your friends and using a faction you already know
random can put you in severe disadvantages if you havent used a determined faction before"


If choice of faction does matter for you (or you played only camapigns before), you've probably lost the game already when playing against one not-very-weak online player. So instead of playing with your preferred faction, it's probably best just to go random, and then you might have a chance to learn the things that DO matter.

As for leaders, I strongly disagree with the 'best ones' posted above.
For one, if I pick drakes for some reason, flare wouldn't be in my top 3. Their 5 moves is just too low to use their leadership effectively on offense, and on defense I seldom fight as drakes. I think Fire Drake, Warrior and sometimes even glatiator is better.

(the rest I dont agree with either, its just the one that really stood out for me)

Velensk
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by Velensk » November 21st, 2008, 3:55 pm

I do not see any reason to not choose your faction if you want to, choosing a faction is a seriouse disadvantage against an opponent who goes random, but non an insurmountable one, and if you and a friend are just playing for fun then why not?

IMO best leaders for factions are

Loyalists: Luitenant: almost to the point of being overpowered
Drakes: Drake Flare
Undead: Death Blade
Northerners: Troll Rocklobber
Knalgans: Trapper, Rouge. Actualy In 1.5 that may be diffrent now that 4 mp leaders get quick.
Rebles: Elvish Captain, Elvish Ranger.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

halifix
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by halifix » November 23rd, 2008, 9:55 pm

Really? 4 MP leaders get quick now? Well, I won't laugh so much when the enemy chooses a Elder Wose or Shock Trooper, then.

Yes, you want a leader to have at least 5 MP, preferrably 6 MP. Depending on the map, this can vary. For example, if the map has multiple keeps, a 6 MP leader can quickly change to a different keep, and send units faster to the front line than recruiting at the old keep would have.

Leadership varies. The Drake Flare is not too slow; he can keep him with clashers, and being able to fly already is an advantage over other factions. I tend to like leaders with both a melee and a ranged attack that deal good damage, like the ranger or flare. That, or have a powerful attack, and restrict the enemy from being able to attack your leader from multiple hexes with the other type of attack. And any unit with leadership is a definite good choice. Healing, not so much. Except for the saurian soothsayer, which tends to easily die anyways, most leaders cannot heal units without spending a lot of time away from a keep recruiting.

Sometimes, when I get a certain leader, I'll choose units to cover his weaknesses. For example, if you have pikeman, you might recruit some more bowmen instead of spearmen (human bowmen are like cheaper thunderguards without resistances and with an attack broken into 3 pieces), or a mage.

IB
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by IB » November 24th, 2008, 1:22 am

Can't believe no one said steelclad as best leader.

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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by Glowing Fish » November 24th, 2008, 3:41 am

A related question is, how relevant is the leader?

I am trying to think how often I see a leader come into play in a decisive way. On Isar's, leaders are very important. On Weldyn Channel or The Freelands, they often come in handy if there is an attack or a scout spam attempt. But on a map like Fallenstar Lake, they usually don't even enter combat.
Don't go to Glowing Fish for advice, he will say both yes and no.

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leocrotta
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by leocrotta » November 25th, 2008, 4:22 pm

Velensk wrote:choosing a faction is a seriouse disadvantage against an opponent who goes random
I partly disagree there. It only is a disadvantage under the assumption that you are equally skilled with every faction imho, cause then : ...
TheMasterOfBattle wrote:If you go random, your oppenent does not know wat faction you are and must recruit a variety of units to be usuful for any faction you may be.
... and that's indeed a slight advantage for you, meaning I agree with roadkill saying:
roadkill wrote:If you know all the default units pretty well and can use all factions I think going random gives you a significant advantage.
On the opposite if you know you cannot play non-neutral factions well for example, you might do better choosing either Knalgan or Elves of course.
And that's where I disagree with csarmi saying ...
csarmi wrote:If choice of faction does matter for you (...), you've probably lost the game already when playing against one not-very-weak online player.
... cause theoretically spoken: who can beat you after mastering one of the factions 100% ? :wink:
I think it actually is the biggest disadvantage to get a faction you don't feel familiar with.

So my conclusion would be:
Start the utopian mission of learning to play each of the factions perfectly well :wink: but still: you might not like every faction's style.

------------------------------------

To the leader question:
imho best leaders (with the reason) are the following :

Loyalists: Lieutenant (+6mp, +leadership), Red Mage (+magic)
Drakes: Drake Flare (+leadership, +movement), Drake Warrior (+6mp, +movement)
Undead: Deathblade (+6mp), Dark Sorcerer (+magic)
Northerners: Troll/Troll Rocklobber (+regen), Orcish Slayer (+6mp)
Knalgans: Rouge (+6mp, +backstab, +skirm), Dwarvish Steelclad (+persistence, just for IB :wink:)
Rebels: Elvish Captain(+leadership), Elvish Marksman(+6mp, +marksman), Elvish Sorceress(+magic), Red Mage (+magic).

Whether you choose mobility, leadership or attack power imho again depends on the style you want to play meaning the way you want to use her/him.
Glowing Fish wrote:But on a map like Fallenstar Lake, they usually don't even enter combat.
That's where you might want to choose mobility/mp :wink:

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TL
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by TL » November 25th, 2008, 11:18 pm

Playing non-random is a much larger handicap if you're on a small map where you don't have much time to react to an early rush. Large, slow-to-develop maps like Fallenstar Lake and Sulla's Ruins make it much harder to punish a faction pick since it tends to take longer to get an attack underway, giving you more time to get counter units recruited. You can try a pure rush on such maps, but it's terribly risky since you'll probably be delaying your village grabs and will be in a very poor position afterwards; even if your attack is nominally successful you may be at a net disadvantage.

The Great Rings
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by The Great Rings » November 26th, 2008, 4:31 am

Rebels (in age of heros): Mage of Light. I've found this one handy on Isar's cross, where a leader can end up being a major combat unit easily. Also, it absolutely plows through undead, and can heal the wounded.

Heal + cure + illuminate for the win!
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roadkill
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by roadkill » November 26th, 2008, 9:30 pm

Yeh MOL is uber, but thats not default,

I think glowing fish has a good point.

On a small map the leader is quite important, but on medium maps it better be a healer to be useful (its so nice having 6 villages walking around in a nice neat cluster).

On large maps if your fighting with your leader your probably not gonna win anyway.

The Great Rings
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by The Great Rings » December 2nd, 2008, 1:15 am

In Default, I like the Elvish Captain.
"One man alone cannot fight the future"-
The X-files

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IK_German
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Re: Faction/leader choices - random?

Post by IK_German » May 18th, 2012, 6:24 pm

Let me tell you a story about a fight I had yesterday. I chose random/random, he chose Elves/druid on Cynsauns Battlefield. I ended up with Loyalists.

Now I knew, that he was well equipped with ranged attacks, quick units and even sea hunters. I figured, he would make use of his druid and advance fast to the island with his druid, while quickly taking far away villages. So I started with 2 horses and a merman to claim villages (and pin his scouting units, he even sent another merman hunter after me) and asap moved to the island myself, where i founded a horse stable. I managed to get his leader in reach of 3 riders, caught him off-guard from outside his sightline and killed her (36HP) with two hits by my lances (20dam). needed 3 attacks though, but her woses couldn't block or defend any more.

The elvish faction and the choice of leader designated my whole strategy (which worked pretty well even without the luck factor); I used only riders and mages.

Furthermore, I learnt about every faction by playing it myself (random) or (more often: campaigns) against it. Finally I started to look into the resistances and defense boni and pick my units by these data. So I am not perfect in any factions - even less in all of them - but I know how to use every faction to carry out my strategies or counter my enemy's. I really have the opinion, that the same strategy can work with all factions. Even if a faction is less suited for it (i.e. undead for a quick rush for the leader) it surprises and/or confuses the enemy and may work nonetheless.

I don't know, if I'm a good player, but at least I'm a decent chess player and love turn-based strategy games. I didn't lose a single game the last 2 weeks and played random nearly always. Even if you don't know much of Wesnoth, you can do quite well by simply thinking before you place your units, totally unaware of faction. And as you can see above the disadvantage of giving your enemy information about your faction AND leader is quite decisive. This disadvantage cannot be equalized by playing with your favorite faction, unless you have an unusual playing style or intentionally do what your opponent wouldn't guess.

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