Leaders out front in multiplayer

[ShideKnight]

Just commenting, i've been playing on the server for two days now and I can't believe how many times i've won because someone has sent there leader out front where myself or my partner can get to them.

Based on that, I really don't think that's a good way to play, but what do other people think? I'm sure there are times when you should get your leader involved in the fight.

[Ghost_whore]

I keep my leader away form the battle, unless irresistible target comes by him. sometimes i move him to get to a better keep, or, if i have an enemy leader cornered i sometimes take a risk and try finish them with my own leader, Just to give them a faint glimmer of hope. But usually My leader stays behind the front line.

I guess the saying "A good kings fights with his men' gets to peoples heads!

[Velensk]

Yes. Having an extra lvl 2 in a fight is a huge help, that can change the way a battle looks (especialy on defence). What you need to do, is if you bring your leader into the fight, you have to make sure he can't be killed. Remember, each unit can only do so much damage, and most leaders are capable of taking a full attack from two units without dieing. Be carefull of high damage potential units such as horsemen, strong clashers, ulfserkers, and other units that are very good at killing.

[Yogibear]

Velensk is right, a leader can make a big difference when it comes to fighting. Personally, i even accept a small chance of my leader dying, that is like 10-20% chance to be killed. Of course only if it is needed (read: i am approaching desperation) or if it promises an instant great advantage for me.

You may find replays of myself where the chance to be killed was significantly higher. In that case, it wasn't a conscious decision but a mistake .

[bert1]

I've lost quite a few games of isars by doing silly things with my leader. I sometimes forgot that the enemy could suicide units against me, so that I thought my leader was safe because only 1 or two units could get to him, but by suiciding low HP units s/he could attack with more.

[fareley]

well maybe it might help if i just write only a few things that i think i learned from the bad version happening to me (i was always the one losing the leader... ):

- usually you use your leader to defend when it's your enemies prefered ToD. So be extra careful, your enemy will do a lot of damage (especially in lawful against chaotic games). Don't expose your leader too much, nearly never attack the same type (melee with melee, ranged with ranged etc.). If you do so your leader will get a huge amount of retaliation damage. And most of the leader can in fact be killed by 2 more or less lucky level 1 units at their prefered ToD. So always worry about not getting too much retaliation damage
- always look out for 2-strike-units. They usually do a lot more damage per strike and - what is more important - it's easier to hit 2/2 than 4/4. If a 4-Strike-Unit attacks your leader the chance he will miss at least 1 strike is much higher than on a 2-strike unit or on a 1-strike unit. So watch out for HI!!!, Gryphons and woses (Gryphons not that much as they don't have any prefered ToD where they do more damage than usual)
- don't get zoced! If your leader can't retreat during the next turns you will usually lose the game. No retreat - no new units. No new units - less units than the enemy. Less units - game lost. That may not always be the case (you know Mr. Random) but i give it a 90,3% chance to happen. Look out for shamans too! A slowed down leader is nearly always less strong than a lvl-1-unit and he can't retreat that fast. So try not to get your leader slowed down. Same goes for Skirmisher. Don't let them block your retreat. Make shure if the enemy has one your other units can kill him (at least twice to be prepared for bad luck ) if he tries to zoc you.
- watch out for Units having Leadership! An enemy at prefered ToD + Leadership may become very deadly! Sometimes you may even sacrifice a spy to block the path for an enemy leader to support his units. It may cost you a unit but it may save your leader, the enemy has to go back to kill your unit (which stands between the enemies leader and his army) at his prefered ToD and save your other units too.
- nearly always place your leader on his best terrain if possible. Never place him into water (i think there is no leader that has good defense in water). It is very important to have good defense but never forget mages don't care where your leader is, they simply hit 70%. And Mr. Random doesn't count on defense too. So it's not the perfect way to survive but it may increase your chances
- usually use your leader only for 1 turn to attack/heal/leadership ability, then fall back. In most cases you need at least 1 turn to get to the battle, 1 turn to fight and 1 turn to go home. That's 3 turns of no recruitement! If you fight another turn you may a) have up to 2 units less in battle compared to your enemy if he recruites, b) get a lot more retaliation damage! (may become crucial...) and c) you may lose on the other side of the map because your leader isn't where he's needed (and has no chance to get there in time) and can't recruit units who may help. Worst case: you win the battle where your leader is, you have 2 kills more compared to your enemy, so a plus of about 35 Gold, you come home and find your castle full of enemies, half of your economy broken down and you're standing between 2 lines of enemies. Your leader may be strong but as he's your only unit that can recruit he has to have different priorities. And with 1 turn of battle engagement you usually have solved the critical turn where your enemy is strongest (usually 2nd watch or afternoon where you don't want to retreat anymore or even at dawn/dusk) and with a new day/night your units should be strong enough to win without leader. Try to not get trapped in possible kills with your leader, he may be strong but he's a ticking bomb on the front. If you don't know better, use him for 1 turn then retreat and cover with your other units

[Ghost_whore]

Less units - game lost.

Not necessarily. I if you have a coke point where you can train units one on one with your healers behind and get them all LV 2, do that with a handful and your gold! I bead a whole horde of adepts, ghost and both types of skeletons with just 6 drak4s trained that way.

[cobra]

I have won many a battle by putting my leader in harms way. Thus attracting lots of unit even if they are on bad terrain. Or I use my leader as a fighter as well as a leader.

[ShideKnight]

I have won many a battle by putting my leader in harms way. Thus attracting lots of unit even if they are on bad terrain. Or I use my leader as a fighter as well as a leader.

It's not that you can't do it effectivly, it's just that i've seen more people screw it up than pull it off correctly.

It makes me think that most people should'nt be doing that kind of thing. The difference is giving the opponent an actual real chance at killing your leader, instead of using your leader to kill something safely or using your leader to make your opponent think they can kill your leader.

I just think people are not really aware of how dangerous it is.

[cobra]

Also it depends on which unit your leader is. It could be vital to the game, or maybe just an act of foolish bravery. I myself prefer to die fighting, and take out as many units as possible before I go down.

[ShideKnight]

That whole leadership/healing thing, yeah. I guess it's just not my style.

[Velensk]

Any good player is aware of how dangerouse it is, and will take that into account. Any good player will also know how potentialy usefull it is, and will take that into account also.

[Elvish Scientist]

It greatly depends on the faction you are. If you play drakes, loyalist, or rebels (leadership!) you can easily put you leader into the battle and retreat in time. Especially loyal factions should use their leader at day time.
With Knalgans I do this only if my leader is very near the front, i.e. when you have a castle halfway the map. Dwarfs are slow and vulnerable when the travel from their keep to the front. A northerner leader is usually to bussy with recruiting (many cheap units) to join the battle before the end.
On the undead I have no real advice as I do not play them often. However, many undead lvl2 can be attacked without (real) retaliation (deathblade: no ranged, sourcerer: no melee). So I would be careful, unless at night and near your castle.

[mrmoose]

My take on this is exactly like yogi's. A lot of times people will look at your leader in the front lines and say OH A LEADER KILL without realizing what kind of risk they need to take to achieve there goal. Hell there have been times i have lost my leader to gain more considering the amounts of units the enemy has to lose to achieve there goal. Now granted this doesnt work for 1vs1 play but im sure you get what i mean. I think a lot is dependent on what leader u have as well. What about in 1vs1's though? my take is that u dont want your leader to far from home because the amounts of units u are killing your enemy is just shelling out and if they block your keep you are screwed. 2vs2 is a different story though
also im not suggesting every single 1vs1 you shouldnt use your leader its dependant on the map and the advantage/disadvantage you have. there is a lot more that goes into it then just *this is how u do it all the time* you have to put vill count TOD and many other factors into it. I think the question was directed towards 2vs2 gaming though so maybe im taking us a bit to far off topic

[Darioth]

It depends on how big the game is and how many units I'll be able to recruit. I would never put my leader on the front line, but if he is a healer or someone with leadership I would have him supporting. Basically if I think I'm going to be able to recruit consistently then I will choose a stronger unit for my leader and keep him back, but if not then I will choose a support unit and send him forward (being able to start with a White Mage or Druid would be a huge plus).