Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

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Daxam
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Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Daxam »

Any idea if Vanguard scenario (Rise of the Westnoth) can be completed using 100 gold on HARD? I could not save money in completing the 4 challenges.

I started with killing undeads (only had 100 gold, after losing all in the Rough Landing), managed to finish with 400. 2nd challenge is the Dragon, ended with also 400. 3rd is the Beach battle, ended with 190. Last is Troll Hole, and due to lack of villages, I finished with negative balance.

Not sure whether I can do better there by choosing different orders ...

In the Campaign Feedback, the general consensus is that, on Hard, it is not doable to finish Vanguard with only 100 gold. Those who have done had 400 gold or so ....

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zookeeper
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by zookeeper »

The minimum starting gold for any scenario should be such that it's realistically possible to win with it assuming the player has a good enough recall list and plays really well. So, any suggestions what it should be here? 200 gold on each difficulty? Or 400,300,200, or something else?

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santi
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by santi »

I would guess no, unless you are extremely lucky(which will not happen). 100 gold plus the loyal units will only get you some 10 units(I don't count lv1 units, they will not survive) at best. Not enough to guard the 3 pinch points, let alone push forward and handle the surprises in the time of turns. I'd say at least some 200+ gold is the minimum
So you need to have made more money in the challenges. Yes, you can do that. You just need to try harder or else look the replays posted(assuming they work on 1.4 or 1.5, which they probably will not)

Daxam
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Daxam »

zookeeper wrote:The minimum starting gold for any scenario should be such that it's realistically possible to win with it assuming the player has a good enough recall list and plays really well. So, any suggestions what it should be here? 200 gold on each difficulty? Or 400,300,200, or something else?
Just my 2 cents: it may be better to set a variable starting gold for the enemies. E.g. in an easy scenario, for HARD, the starting gold of enemy = your gold x 1.2 up to a max of xxx. In a scenario that is intended to be difficult, starting gold of enemies = your gold x 1.5 up to a max of xxx.

Just a thought

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santi
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by santi »

Hmm... does no work as sugested because of the surprises, but they can also be accounted for. But going back and replaying is part of the game
and is actually a good way of improving your game. Especially in TROW I
remember saying many times" this scenario is impossible" only to
beat it later with an improved strategy rather comfortably. Especially the last TROW scenario I tried a number of things and went back many times til
I finally figured out the right strategy

Daxam
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Joined: April 7th, 2008, 3:38 am

Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Daxam »

I finally managed to crack this scenario with 100 gold on Hard, after weeks of trying it! :D

The key is apparently: peasants

First strategy: used recalls with 100 gold. It failed because of the sheer numbers of enemies ganging up from many different directions

Second: recall only loyal units (the 3 IM) plus recruiting lvl 1s as fodders. It almost worked, but the gold was still too tight. I can only recruit 1 every 1.5 turns

Third: recall 3 loyal IMs + 1 Mage of Light (non-loyal for healing) plus recruit peasants. Because they are level 0s, I don't have to pay upkeeps. I can summon about 3 every 2 turns. Put them in the forests and mountains near the camp. This will attract the enemy units to come near the core armies. Then the objective was to kill at least 4 enemies per turn with 3 IMs, 2 Mage of Lights, Burin, Sir Rudd, the lvl 2 commander and Haldric. After the first 10 turns, the enemies getting fewer and that is the time to start moving troops to enemies' camp ((i) North, (ii) North West and (iii) west). I finished with 2 turns to spare and 150 gold at the end.

Max
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Max »

wow^^ it's a shame that replays currently don't work. i'd really like to see that...

btw: choosing a different order in those 4 campaigns has made a huge difference for me. after finding myself in a quite similar position i replayed it from there and left the last one with over 1000 gold.
zookeeper wrote:The minimum starting gold for any scenario should be such that it's realistically possible to win with it assuming the player has a good enough recall list and plays really well
that's not true for a lot of scenarios in mainline campaigns.

i've recently installed bfw 1.0.3a to watch an old replay. out of curiosity i've played a campaign - it is much easier there. hard feels rather like medium. and there's a reason for that:
the ai has been much improved since, but things like starting gold have never been changed (i've had a look at this campaign - trow, same starting gold in 1.03a and 1.4.3 in all scenarios).

and in 1.5 there's yet more improvement to come. maybe some campaigns need a bit of rebalancing?

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zookeeper
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by zookeeper »

Max2008 wrote:
zookeeper wrote:The minimum starting gold for any scenario should be such that it's realistically possible to win with it assuming the player has a good enough recall list and plays really well
that's not true for a lot of scenarios in mainline campaigns.
Yep. That's why those scenarios need good players testing them and posting good rebalancing suggestions. ;)

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santi
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by santi »

Just a note: The last 3 TROW scenario are tightly knit together. 150 gold may
be a bit short for beating the last 2 scenaria. So don't get too excited yet.
Those chocobones can strike from the darkness deep into your territory and you may have problems fighting on 3 fronts with whatever 150 gold can get you.
The challenge scenarios CAN earn you money, but you have to resist overrecruiting(you also have to resist underrecruiting too....) and you need
usual anti-saurian tactics. As for the trolls, instead of splitting your forces looking for them, it's best to let them come to you so you fight them first at the pinch points, rotating units healing them. And the tentacles are great for levelling mages, especially silver mages which will be indispensable for the last scenaria.

Daxam
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Daxam »

You are right. 150 gold is just too little to finish Return of Fleet within 39 turns....not with all the nasty surprises that slow down my troops' march toward enemies' castles :cry:

If I have to re-do the 4 challenges with 100 gold to start with (impossible not to drain money in Rough Landing, I think :hmm:) , any suggestion on the order?

Previously:
100 gold start in Cursed Isle and finished with 400+
Dragon challenge, finish with 450
Naga Beach, finish with 190
Troll Hole, finish with 100 (darn Troll!)

I was thinking of now doing the Troll Hole first, Cursed Isle, Naga Beach and finish off with Dragon Challenge. What do you guys think?

Max
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Re: Defeating Vanguard (RotW) with 100 Gold on HARD

Post by Max »

there's a new approach available in 1.5 branch and it looks that one campaign has already been changend:
Applied the new experimental gold carryover model to SoF: you carry 20% of your finishing gold to the next scenario, applied as a bonus on top of the minimum starting gold.
i think that this approach would be much better in terms of balancing. in a lot of scenarios (at least when playing medium or hard) the minimum gold is not nearly enough to succeed (without excessive cheating^^). on the other hand there's the problem that once you managed to have lots of gold the campaigns get too easy. you can afford to over recruit, overwhelm your opponents, don't have to care for villages at all and make up for it by getting a huge early finishing bonus.

carry over value can be more than 20% and you can even mix both approaches (and i guess the minimum starting gold would have to be raised for some scenarios). maybe this campaign could also benefit from such a change?

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