Balance Issues

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
Doc Paterson
Drake Cartographer
Posts: 1973
Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
Location: Kazakh
Contact:

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Doc Paterson » May 7th, 2008, 12:13 pm

Seraph wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:Grand Master Seraph: If you'll be on the server around 9 GMT tomorrow (May 7th that is), I'll face your overpowered elves with my underpowered drakes. ;)
Very well. May the outcome of this battle help me decide.
I'll look for you around that time- Could be a little bit before 9GMT, could be a little bit after, depending on my work situation. Keep an eye out for Crafty Badger, just in case I don't find you, or you're using some other name.

See you, hopefully, in about 7 hours.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

F50
Posts: 48
Joined: April 22nd, 2008, 9:59 pm

Re: Balance Issues

Post by F50 » May 7th, 2008, 5:45 pm

Balance is relative to maps.

Making a categorical claim that the factions are unbalanced is an untenable position because:

1. One may attempt to apply balance issues from maps like Isar's Cross to more balanced maps.
2. One may simply not see a counter-strategy that works well (currently looking for a Knalgan vs. Rebel strategy that works well).
3. This game has been developed for a long time, if it is unbalanced, it is not unbalanced in any basic matchup but rather either very slightly or in very particular circumstances.

Knalgans (Dwarves) are superb at defending if you are willing/able to sit in one place. The problem is, that is not always possible (thus Outlaws are required). Rebels are more mobile in their defense. The type of defense that Rebels and Knalgans are capable of differ.

Seraph
Posts: 5
Joined: May 4th, 2008, 4:59 pm

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Seraph » May 7th, 2008, 8:16 pm

Balance is relative to maps.
This I agree with.
I see that larger maps favor drakes because they are the most mobile race.
Last edited by Seraph on May 7th, 2008, 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Doc Paterson
Drake Cartographer
Posts: 1973
Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
Location: Kazakh
Contact:

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Doc Paterson » May 7th, 2008, 8:26 pm

Seraph wrote:
Balance is relative to maps.
This I agree with.
I see that larger maps favor drakes.
I think you completely missed his point.

Also, you don't seriously believe that you lost that because of the map, do you?
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Wintermute » May 7th, 2008, 8:35 pm

Seraph wrote:
Balance is relative to maps.
This I agree with.
I see that larger maps favor drakes.
Seraph, keep in mind that people come on the forums all the time claiming that drakes are too weak, or drakes are underpowered, or what have you.

What ends up happening a lot is that such people have only played games on Isar's Cross, or playing without using the default setttings (which are the balanced settings), or playing without fog, or all of the above. If you want a balanced game: play with the default settings, don't play on Isar's Cross, and practice up. Things seem unbalanced until you get the hang of it. I remember feeling the same way at first too, but it was only because I didn't understand how to play all of the factions.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."

Jozrael
Posts: 1034
Joined: June 2nd, 2006, 1:39 pm
Location: NJ, USA.

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Jozrael » May 7th, 2008, 8:57 pm

Seraph wrote:
Balance is relative to maps.
This I agree with.
I see that larger maps favor drakes because they are the most mobile race.
Its not so much that, just that the reverse is true (for you logic fans out there, I'm having a mind fart, what is this called? Contradiction? I don't think so, its the reverse on both sides...I forget, lol).

Isar's Cross specifically is too small to balance properly, and one of the factions hit hardest is the drakes.

Wintermute had a good suggestion. Play some games on weldyn channel or something as drakes. Their weaknesses and strengths balance out well there.

Seraph
Posts: 5
Joined: May 4th, 2008, 4:59 pm

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Seraph » May 7th, 2008, 9:15 pm

I think you completely missed his point.

Also, you don't seriously believe that you lost that because of the map, do you?
No, I lost because of strategy. You simply straight up beat me.

Yes, yes, I see now. I actually learned a lot about strategy in this game by simply just one game.
Last edited by Seraph on May 7th, 2008, 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Balance Issues

Post by turin » May 7th, 2008, 9:16 pm

Jozrael wrote:Its not so much that, just that the reverse is true (for you logic fans out there, I'm having a mind fart, what is this called? Contradiction? I don't think so, its the reverse on both sides...I forget, lol).
Converse?
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

Fosprey
Posts: 252
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Fosprey » May 8th, 2008, 12:57 am

i don't play knalgans or rebels to be honest, i hate to defend.
But most good people i see playing knalgans like nani and gallifax they prouce a ratio of 30% dwarves and 70% outlawns, and they play them pretty offensive,cheap between high damagin units like thief, sneaky cheap units like footpad, and the great offensive power of berseker, knalgans can provide a faster offensive.
Rebels in general only attack when they have big numbers, the problem is that it's offensive units (wose and mage) are pretty slow and more important, expensive, if you go right of the bat with those, you can be overrunned, so in general you need to pull out a big defense with archers and fighters, and then, and only then, start adding shamans, mages and woses, for the big offensive, that's why i consider rebels to be a more defensive side.
But of course that a thunderer in a mountain, or just a guardsman, are very hard to kill compared to most rebel units, but i's the faction playing style what i'm talking about, and as i said, good players thend to be more aggresive with knalgans than with rebels.

User avatar
Sorrow
Posts: 230
Joined: July 25th, 2006, 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Sorrow » May 8th, 2008, 1:49 am

Knalgans are still way more defensive. All their core units are slow, and heavy in the resist department. That outlaw "strategy" you see is called the opening of a game.

Edit: Or Hodor
Let us all measure in milliyards, that way we can all get along.

Replay Archive: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Replays

F50
Posts: 48
Joined: April 22nd, 2008, 9:59 pm

Re: Balance Issues

Post by F50 » May 13th, 2008, 10:51 pm

Jozrael wrote:
Seraph wrote: This I agree with.
I see that larger maps favor drakes because they are the most mobile race.
Its not so much that, just that the reverse is true (for you logic fans out there, I'm having a mind fart, what is this called? Contradiction? I don't think so, its the reverse on both sides...I forget, lol).
It really depends on what you mean by reverse. In your case you are looking for the negation of both sides or the inverse "smaller maps kill drakes because they rely on mobility"


larger maps don't advantage drakes unless there is a vast expanse with no villages or villages in the center that the drakes can reach long before the other side (in which case the map is imbalanced).

User avatar
Aethaeryn
Translator
Posts: 1553
Joined: September 15th, 2007, 10:21 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Re: Balance Issues

Post by Aethaeryn » May 13th, 2008, 11:12 pm

F50 wrote:larger maps don't advantage drakes unless there is a vast expanse with no villages or villages in the center that the drakes can reach long before the other side (in which case the map is imbalanced).
I agree. If anything, large maps benefit Undead because of the cheap 13g flying scout.
Aethaeryn (User Page)
Wiki Moderator (wiki)
Latin Translator [wiki=Latin Translation](wiki)[/wiki]
Maintainer of Thunderstone Era (wiki) and Aethaeryn's Maps [wiki=Aethaeryn's Maps](wiki)[/wiki]

Post Reply