Balance Issues

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Seraph
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Balance Issues

Post by Seraph » May 6th, 2008, 10:54 pm

I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues.
First off let me say that elves are in fact overpowered. Over 50% of the players I see online play elves. Why? Because they are so powerful. Not only are they fairly strong, but have a high hit rate and high defense as well as being neutral.
Secondly, the drakes are underpowered (not the saurians, they are fine). They are said to be a very strong race with expensive units. Both of these are true, but I think their hit rate is too low. The max I can get with them is 60%. Which is if I'm lucky. Usually they are at 40% or 50%. Sometimes it drops to 30% - at which it isn't even worth attacking. So your forced to sit there and rely on defense or retreat, losing territory to the enemy. Usually when doing what the "how to play drakes" guide says, I'll attack (because it says I have to be aggressive) and lose half of my unit's HP while dealing little or no damage to the enemy. This isn't so much the case with clashers as with fighters.

Those are the major balance issues I found. I have to admit that the balance is quite impressive for a game using so many races, but there are some issues that I think need to be fixed.

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zookeeper
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by zookeeper » May 6th, 2008, 11:19 pm

Seraph wrote:I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues.
The people who have finetuned the balance have played the game for years and are bloody good at it. You play for a couple of days, have some matches where either you or someone else gets their arse kicked by the other one, and you actually find it more likely that the game's balance is the cause instead of some people just not being very good at the game?

I can predict that you'll get quite a lot of nasty responses here due to the above.

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Sorrow
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Sorrow » May 6th, 2008, 11:26 pm

Wellllll there isn't any such thing as a hit rate so that isn't anything but the games you happened to play in. Its a random number generator what do you expect?

Almost all the decent/good players play random so that should tell you something...
Let us all measure in milliyards, that way we can all get along.

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Trau
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Trau » May 6th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Eh? Most people I see play Knalgan, Drakes, or Undead.

Also, neutrality is not an advantage. You cannot be penalized by time of day, but neither can you ever be boosted.

Oh, and hit rate does not exist. All of your chances to hit are based on the what unit the enemy is using on which tile. Try it out. Any drake will have an 80% chance to hit an elvish fighter who is standing in shallow water.

Seraph
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Seraph » May 7th, 2008, 12:16 am

I've played roughly 50 games in the few days I've played this game and have lots of experience in both TBS and RTS games.
Instead of hit rate perhaps I should of said chance of hitting?

The fact that they are neutral leaves them in a great position. They are not limited to when they can attack or defend effectively. Or when they are at a weak point. I just thought that the drakes were underpowered considering they were supposedly a very powerful race with expensive units.

Trau
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Trau » May 7th, 2008, 12:44 am

Chance of hitting... doesn't exist either. :hmm:

Outside of magic and marksman attacks, the only thing that exists in this game is the chance of BEING hit.

Being neutral does not give you unlimited opportunity to attack or defend because, remember, the enemy may still be lawful or chaotic. When the enemy is receiving his time-related bonus, it is still unwise to attack when you are neutral because he has a 25% advantage over you. It is still wise to attack when the enemy is receiving his time penalty, since you would have a 25% advantage over him.

As for drakes being powerful and expensive... I don't get how you would dispute that. Clashers and Burners can do a base 24 damage in one round, the highest in the game aside from Woses and tying with Gryphon riders. Considering also that strong Gryphon riders get 26 max damage in a round while strong clashers get 28 damage, and woses cannot get traits, you see that strong clashers have the highest base damage of any level 1 unit. Fighters, on the other hand, weigh in at a respectable 21 max damage (24 strong), the same as a Loyalist spearman, but also have an extra move and drakes have, across the board, some pretty high hp values. Burners and Clashers have hp rivalled only by the guardsman, troll whelp, and superceded by the Wose. In perspective, that's about full 10 hp higher than most loyalists.

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Doc Paterson
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Doc Paterson » May 7th, 2008, 1:58 am

Grand Master Seraph: If you'll be on the server around 9 GMT tomorrow (May 7th that is), I'll face your overpowered elves with my underpowered drakes. ;)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

Jozrael
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Jozrael » May 7th, 2008, 2:06 am

Guys guys. Cut him a break. He obviously doesn't even know that that number stands for DEFENSE.

There is no such thing as getting a guy with 60% chance to hit (unless u count marksman, which is different).

If you put an elf on a forest tile, that 70 (or 60 as the case may be) is the chance for the ENEMY units to hit THEM.

Then again, u said drakes with a hit rate of 60... so maybe you're talking about something else, cuz highest non-Sky Drake defense is 40.

In any case, drakes dont have an 'inherent' hit rate. Try shooting an elvish archer when hes standing in the water: you'll have a hit rate of 80 regardless of whos attacking, unless its magical.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Cackfiend » May 7th, 2008, 2:20 am

Seraph wrote:I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues. ...the drakes are underpowered

*face palm*
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Seraph
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Seraph » May 7th, 2008, 2:44 am

Doc Paterson wrote:Grand Master Seraph: If you'll be on the server around 9 GMT tomorrow (May 7th that is), I'll face your overpowered elves with my underpowered drakes. ;)
Very well. May the outcome of this battle help me decide.

Sombra
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Sombra » May 7th, 2008, 5:51 am

:) Post the replay.

I have to admit the drakes feel like glass...hart but brittle....

Jozrael
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Jozrael » May 7th, 2008, 7:41 am

No offense seraph but you're about to face a serious opponent. If you wish to do well I'd practice against some better known people on the forums a couple times elves v drakes to get a warmup.

Doc, have fun ^^.

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Chris NS
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Chris NS » May 7th, 2008, 8:10 am

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Fosprey
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Fosprey » May 7th, 2008, 8:33 am

i'm really a bitcher,but i think that claiming some matchup in some mainline map is unbalanced woudl get more credit. But in general sides are pretty balanced. Of course i don't buy they are 100% balanced, but balanced enough that most players couldn't prove there is a difference, i believe they are.
With that say, drakes are a very good side, and in fact between best players, there is the suspicious , it can be a little more powerfull than the other sides, so if you would come and claim northerns or knalgans are a bit underpowered, i would consider it to be false anyway, but i would give you a little more credit. But drakes, i don't think so. It's true that i see it as the side beginners complain more about, i think it has to do with it's real weakness in isar cross, and the other part, because i see more beginners, don't retreat, and if you don't tend to retreat, drakes are horrible. Drakes is a side that constantly need to give terrain away, because they can't defend properly. On the other side, drakes have a great mobility, and great offensive power. At the right time and place, drakes need to recover the lost terrain and more, and they have more than the capabilites to do so.
Rebels is the most defensive side, and drake the most aggresive side, beginneres tend to be defensive, that's why they consider rebels the best and drakes the worst. Rebel just fits better the beginner tendencies.

Jozrael
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Re: Balance Issues

Post by Jozrael » May 7th, 2008, 9:23 am

I agree with your entire post on the whole Fosprey, but cuz I'm a nitpick I wanna debate some of the smaller points.

I think it is impossible to balance any game 100% unless it is symmetrical, and even then in a turn-based game, its almost impossible to eliminate FPA or SPA. However, we can get as close to this ideal as possible, and then support it with balanced maps.

So, if there's any possible imbalance that you see, please speak it so that the developers can either explain a possible side you might not see, or maybe perhaps there really is an imbalance. Saying 'there must be an imbalance but I can't find it' is sort of odd.

Drakes are indeed an incredibly offensive faction and can rack up amazing attack power, POSSIBLY more than any other faction.

Does this mean that they are overpowered? I don't think so, or we'd see pros winning more often with drakes, whereas each matchup is pretty balanced 50-50 with pros on balanced maps.

I'm no pro at Isar's cross, are drakes really weak there? It seems to me that being able to hit any spot on the map with every one of your units to be a large advantage, and there's very little grassland terrain for them to be caught on. But I have heard it said from multiple people that Drakes have a problem on Isar's, I'm just curious why you think so.

In terms of the most defensive side, I would opt for the dwarves with that. They have a unit with superb defense in every tile, and they have their guardsmen to just sit and tank damage at incredibly low rates. All the elves have is +10 or +20 defense in forests.

However, they are a very ranged faction, meaning that they will always be counterattacking you, no free shots on their units.

Just points I wanted to bring up.

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