Fighting Elves

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ChibiDwarf
Posts: 42
Joined: October 12th, 2007, 10:53 am

Fighting Elves

Post by ChibiDwarf »

Does anyone have any tips for a Northerner/Undead to beat the Rebel faction? I keep getting my ass handed back to me against their Woes/Archer combo...
nataS
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Joined: January 28th, 2008, 3:21 pm

Re: Fighting Elves

Post by nataS »

Have you read the how to play Rebels topic by JW?
General Rebel Strategies: wrote: On the first turn when you have a random opponent it is good to get a mixture of units. A Scout, Merman, Archer, 2 Fighters, and a Mage would be an example of such a recruit. When you discover what faction your opponent is, go to the appropriate section below for more advice.

Rebels have good to great defense in forest. Try to keep them there whenever possible, as obvious as that is. Even the easily hit Wose has his best defense (still hit more often than missed) in forest.

Elves are Neutral in alignment, so attack when your opponent is at their weakest. The Mage, Wose, and Merman are Lawful however, so take this into consideration if you recruit these units. You will be strongest in the day, but if your opponent is also strongest in the day it is usually best to fight at night.

One of the Rebels' greatest strengths is their abundance of ranged attacks in harmony with the Dextrous trait. This characteristic gives Rebels frequent chances to attack without taking retaliation damage. It also guarantees any opponent attacking you will take some damage in return.

Rebels also have good mobility, their Scout having the highest level 1 movement in the game (9 moves). The deadly Archer is also gifted with 6 - both are also graced with the speedy woodland movetype. Use this mobility to your advantage early by taking a village advantage and later by ZOCing your opponents weakened units.
And Undead versus Rebels:
Undead versus Rebels: wrote: You'll likely see a bunch of Woses and Mages in this battle as they are the best unit to deal damage to your forces. Because they are Lawful there will again be a strong day/night push. If your opponent does not recruit many of these units you shouldn't have much of a challenge ahead of you if you simply recruit Skeletons and Archers.

Skeleton: A necessity. These guys resist Blade and Pierce greatly - the 2 major weapons of Elves. These guys will also chop through Mages and are even good to kill Woses at night. Keep these guys away from Woses and Mages during the day.

Skeleton Archer: It's better to buy Skeletons than Archers here. Skeletons only cost 1g more but deal more damage on their primary attack and their Blade cuts through Wose resistancies as well as avoids magical return damage from the Mage. Don't recruit this guy unless your opponent recruits no Woses or Mages.

Walking Corpse: If you can turn 1 or 2 units to your side this unit has paid for himself. Recruit sparingly, though he can be quite useful against Mages if they are foolish enough to stay close after daytime.

Vampire Bat: Since the Ghost isn't the best bargain against Rebels, if you need a scout unit, the Bat should be your choice. Having more than 1 quickly leads to diminishing returns, so save your gold for units that can fight.

Ghoul: A decent unit to have 1 of. Fighting Woses at night he deals 5-3 plus prevents Regeneration and takes 10-2 in return. If you can't kill a Wose in one turn, hitting him with a Ghoul is a good idea. Also useful against any Elves that decide to entrench themselves in forest, this guy is a utility unit, not an en-masse unit. He does resist Fire at 10%, so of all your units to take hits from Mages, this is probably the one you want to do it on defense.

Dark Adept: Good for knocking out Elves in forest, the main reason you'll recruit this guy is to attack Woses without return damage. Showing no weakeness to Fire, the Adept can also kill Mages at night with his 12-2 attack suffering 5-3 in return (if he fails to kill). If your opponent's leader is a White Mage you'll want to recruit even more of these guys as they are your only unit that resists Holy damage and doesn't have a lopsided weakness to it. Good for several reasons, 1 or 2 of this guy is a must.

Ghost: The ranged specialist Rebels can take out this unit with relative ease; they can even kill it without Mages, though obviously that would be their first choice. Since Mermen and Woses resist Cold, and all other units have high defense or a strong ranged counter-attack, this unit isn't the best buy against Rebels.

A good first turn recruit would consist of 2 Skeletons, a Ghoul, a DA, perhaps a Bat, and another useful unit. Keep your Ghoul(s) up front during the day to minimize the Rebel offensive, and retreat if necessary.

On the offensive, kill Woses and Mages as quickly as possible. Hack up Mages first, and freeze and Poison the Woses. If you have any Skeletons left, try to chop down the trees as well. If you have Archers use them on any Elves your opponent has. Bats can be used on Mages, and use WCs on any unit that they have a chance to kill.

Try to focus xp on single Skeletons. Levelling one into a Deathblade will prove deadly for your opponent. His extra move will hunt down Mages and Elves and his extra strike will ensure their deaths. The unit also becomes a real Wose killer at night dealing up to 50 of 52 damage. Levelling a Bat will also prove a useful Mage hunting tool.
And how to play Northerners:
General Northerner Strategies: wrote:On the first turn when you have a random opponent it is good to get a mixture of units that will be good in any situation. A Wolf Rider, a Grunt, a Whelp, an Archer and an Assassin recruit would be an example of such a recruit. When you discover what faction your opponent is, go to the appropriate section below for more advice.

In general, Northerners will win by mass. Northerners are the cheapest faction and need to utilize that advantage. Poison will be a crucial strategic element as Northerners have the only ranged poison in the game. Grunts and Whelps will be the meat of your army, but make sure to recruit Grunts or Assassins to hold villages, as Whelps do a poor job of this with 40% defense.

Northerners level quickly on the whole compared to other factions, so try to level any unit as they all grow in power quickly. Nagas upon level actually fare rather well on land, and Trolls will double their damage. Levelling Grunts gains you a great number of hp, but they are a tad slower to level than the other units at your disposal. Wolf Riders also do well as Pillagers to slow your enemy, and Assassins become better than Grunts at dealing melee damage. Try to focus your xp alotment to gain an advantage.

Your lack of ranged combat will mean you will be vulnerable to ranged counter-attacks. Plan accordingly and have some Assassins nearby to help defend against retaliation. Trolls are good for frontline blockers for their Regen, but keep them in hills or mountains where they have decent defense.
sam_waz_here
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by sam_waz_here »

If you're fighting the comp just put a wounded unit 2 hexes away from the forest and watch the elves come running.
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ChibiDwarf
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by ChibiDwarf »

Well I did read the guide, but on matter how much units I make as northerners he just keep killing them(and leveling up), and it always end up with me facing a legion of level 3(!!) in the end...
sam_waz_here
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by sam_waz_here »

As long as you lure them out of the forest your grunts and welps should be able to handle them.
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ChibiDwarf
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by ChibiDwarf »

But what if they refuse to leave the forest? Usually he's either keeping all his troops in forests, or stacked near villages. He places his troops so well that I often end up having only 2 units hitting my target, and unless I have extreme luck, stopping me from killing them. The only time his troops leaves the forests is when he have a whole load of level 2(and 3 sometimes) and wipe me out.
Raemon
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by Raemon »

Well, it seems that attacking him normally is suicide. You could try letting him stay there while you build up a massive army of goblins. He'll hit an upkeep wall, you won't. Also, consider several Assassins (although not more than you can defend, of course) to poison him.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by Doc Paterson »

Chibi, if you post a replay, I'll try to give you some specific advice.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
TobiasParker
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Joined: December 31st, 2007, 2:40 pm

Re: Fighting Elves

Post by TobiasParker »

Northerners are my preferred race and the way i deal with elves is basically this.

Assuming this is default multiplayer with 100 gold on a frequently used map such as Isars or Morituri or something.
Basically keep your ratio of grunts to other types of units equal.

For example: Say after turn 3 or 4 your should have 3 archers, 2 assassins, and 5 grunts. I don't bother with other units, why waste upkeep on a naga for that one village (on Isars), i feel it is a waste. I usually let the other team take it and then just park a grunt near it (and don't attack) to Zone Of Control him. So his 14-17 point merman(or whatever) is neutralized by my 12 point grunt, net gain for me it is just like it killed him.

Now basically you make a wall with your Grunts. and then use your assassins to poison select units (archers and fighters), making sure that only one unit can retaliate against it. then finish off units with your archers, get 2 archers to level to crossbowman: 10-2 fire attacks, at night +2.5 vs Woses +5...is somewhere around 17 damage per attack vs woses. Not exactly sure about wesnoth math. On 70% an intelligent archer can level after 2 kills.

Sorry if that doesnt make sense, a little ADD will mess up my thought process every once in a while.
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Caphriel
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by Caphriel »

Wouldn't using trolls instead of grunts work better for holding the line, if you're not using them to deal damage? They cost 1 gold more, but they have more HP, resist blade and pierce, and regenerate.
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pauxlo
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by pauxlo »

Caphriel wrote:Wouldn't using trolls instead of grunts work better for holding the line, if you're not using them to deal damage? They cost 1 gold more, but they have more HP, resist blade and pierce, and regenerate.
Trolls have worse defenses than grunts on most terrain. So, some trolls (for hills/mountains) are good, but not too much.
TobiasParker
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by TobiasParker »

I am not big on trolls against anything but undead. I mean yea regen is nice, but awful defense and 2 less damage. Also i only don't attack with one grunt, a troll could be used there, but as i said: I am not big on whelps. P.S. a whelps best defense is 60% on mountains, on Isars the best Def you are likely to get is 50%.
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ChibiDwarf
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by ChibiDwarf »

Doc Paterson wrote:Chibi, if you post a replay, I'll try to give you some specific advice.
Should have thought of doing so in the first place--here is one...me as northern(ChibiDwarf) versus his rebel(Local Player).

Many thanks for those who came up with advice, I'll give them a good think over the week...
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csarmi
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by csarmi »

As for someone (forgot his name) saying that on Isar he just gives up water village and ZoC's the merman there.
First of all, you can't just ZoC it.
Second, EVERY turn he has that village, you get 3 gold less and he gets 3 gold more, so that is SIX gold per turn...

Okay, let me comment on this save:

Turn 1: Recruits are not bad I think. You're going to get all your villages by turn 3 (with some luck, however: I sure would have started with an assasin, it's fast). Two scouts are okay, some would prefer one, but I like the mobility as well.

Turn 2: First mistake of the game. For some reason, Hudash stops moving forward with 1 movement point left. I'm not really sure what your plans were with him, but he'd be better off both at 19,9 and 20,8. What are you afraid of? A scout coming in and shooting you from forest? That's one less unit of him taking villages (3 gold), and one more unit you kill easily (18 gold).

Turn 3: Forgot village at (8,5). That's a HUGE mistake. -3gpt until you take it, and when you do take it, you wasted a move that you might need later. I haven't got a clue what you are up to with all those units in the center. They do not threatScen anything. They are also badly placed for a possible counter vs village steals. Just pointing out the obvious: grunt at 20,10 (in the forest) is surely better (can reach the same squares AND controls east somewhat. Troll could be next to the river too. 50% defense on that hill is all nice, but you don't need it. He can't kill your troll in one turn. He can't surround it. If he sends something to attack it, that unit goes down. Thus, he is safe.

Turn 4: He takes 24,7. That is 6 gold stolen from you, but a suicide. Scouts have 40% defense on village. You can actually kill it this turn. But even if you cannot, you can ZoC it. Note that you can see all of his units except one. He has a scout (in your village), an archer behind the river following him. He also has an archer and scout sent at you on the west. He has an archer in his keep, his leader is a marksman and he is supposed to have a fighter, shaman or archer in the southeast, far away from you, collecting his villages. He is trying to steal your villages, but now you can strike back - night time is coming.

1) Scout to south a bit, then move to the hill next to the scout's village (25,7) with your wolf. Don't attack yet.
2) Hit scout from the south with grunt. If you score two hits, finish it with wolf+assasin. If not, you may just poison it with assasin and not attack with wolf. Not attacking would ensure that scout is trapped for good. If you attack, and you get unlucky on retal, you may end up receiving damage, then his archer finishing your wolf. Very unlikely, however, and one more unit down the drain, so I suggest pushing the attack. So 1st you poison with assasin, second you try to finish with wolf (you'd like that wolf to level, not the assasin, right?)
3) Move troll to 13,14. His archer is out of play now on the west. He can shoot, yes - but then you just counter and retreat troll to heal.
4) Move wolf to (10,12) to close his scout attack and threaten his villages.
5) Move grunt to take forgtotten village.
6) Recruit an assasin or smth you like.
7) Move leader to (21,8) if his scout isn't dead. If it is, move southwest.

...to be continued...
ChibiDwarf
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Re: Fighting Elves

Post by ChibiDwarf »

Oh wow, talk about professionalism! Even I didn't spot those mistakes on such precision! I'm always afraid of him breaking through the middle on that map, and my friend uses that chance to sneak units through the sidelines all the time. I'm also too afraid of attacking units in the village, and that allowed him to keep stealing my villages from me, guess that's a big mistake...

I tend to capture villages from the front first, then retreat to the back to grab the empty ones to extend my reach of territory, and thus the choice of village taking in turn 3, but is that a mistake...?

Should we be playing on fog of war, it'd be a better case for me, though since we play on the same computer, he says it's pointless...

Here's another replay, undead versus elves, don't mind the last few rounds, he was completely toying around with me but there's nothing I could do...

(The reason I 'won' is because he said if he kill my vampire he looses, so yeah, it's my win in the end ><)
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