making drake fighter more resistant to cold

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nataS
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by nataS »

Sure but I believe this topic fits better in the "Strategies & Tips" forum. Then we can fully discuss your replays without bothering the developers with it. And if (at some point) we come to a consensus for an imbalance backed up with solid evidence, it is possible to suggest a change. Currently though I believe dragons versus undead provide a fair game. Not because I won that single game, or you lose/win another ten games versus first time wesnoth players for that matter. But because die hard wesnoth players that have hundreds of games on their name are not complaining. For example Gallifax (current number #1 player of the subversiva ladder) just stated "drakes are not underpowered" and "really there is no change needed".
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

nataS wrote:Sure but I believe this topic fits better in the "Strategies & Tips" forum. Then we can fully discuss your replays without bothering the developers with it. And if (at some point) we come to a consensus for an imbalance backed up with solid evidence, it is possible to suggest a change. Currently though I believe dragons versus undead provide a fair game. Not because I won that single game, or you lose/win another ten games versus first time wesnoth players for that matter. But because die hard wesnoth players that have hundreds of games on their name are not complaining. For example Gallifax (current number #1 player of the subversiva ladder) just stated "drakes are not underpowered" and "really there is no change needed".
well, this topic was meant to discuss if changing weakness of drake fighter to cold could be good idea.. but I feel its actually just another topic about "how to play drakes against undead".. I do not propose that idea because I have some secret killing strategy against drakes. It is because its imo significantly harder to win with drakes against undead then any other matchup. this is imho unbalanced. If you dont think that it does not mean that something is unbalanced, then there is nothing to discuss, except "what means underpowered and unbalanced".
I will still try to prove it that for me its "unbalanced" (for someone "harder" but NOT unbalanced). Tommorow, wait for replays.
Also, just because one guy nicknamed gallifax say that its balanced dont mean that it IS balanced. And I didnt say that drakes are generaly underpowered, I sayed that drake - undead matchup isnt balanced, but not drakes.
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anakayub
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by anakayub »

I think you've confused yourself there.

Balanced means not underpowered nor overpowered for any particular matchup on a balanced map.

Harder means underpowered which thus means unbalanced. Unless if what you mean by harder is harder for a player to properly understand it's strategies + tactics, for which drakes are the hardest for players to understand properly; but once you do you will be just as adept with drakes as using other factions and find them not overpowered or underpowered in any matchup.
Take a breath.
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

anakayub wrote:I think you've confused yourself there.

Balanced means not underpowered nor overpowered for any particular matchup on a balanced map.

Harder means underpowered which thus means unbalanced. Unless if what you mean by harder is harder for a player to properly understand it's strategies + tactics, for which drakes are the hardest for players to understand properly; but once you do you will be just as adept with drakes as using other factions and find them not overpowered or underpowered in any matchup.
nono, I didn´t confused myself. it must be bad english or something. :)

I have reacted on thing you have written before:
anakayub wrote:zacharias:

Just prove that you consistently beat other good drake players (I think nataS and those of higher level fit the description) with them on their uber best game, resulting in them having no chance to beat you. :wink: That's the only way to prove that Drakes are disadvantaged, if not it just proves that you're not good enough with Drakes yet, or you're better with Undead.
well, I have sayed that it looks like we thought by word "underpowered" totally different thing. It was looking like you think that underpowered means "cant win with it" or something like that but it was just because of my bad english I think.

and what the heck, no one want to understand me? I am decent player with drakes, playing for 4 years, UNDERSTANDING AT LEAST basic strategies and tactics with drakes. Thing I am trying to say is that drakes - undead is unbalanced - A LITTLE. is it impossible to propose anything without being totally rejected?

and what if I will find drakes underpowered? then what? really, say me what is needed to prove that something is unbalanced. do I need to win battle against much better player? there isnt another way to prove it? win battle against much better player can be good to prove BIG underpowerings/overpowerings. but what about small?
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anakayub
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by anakayub »

If you want to prove drakes are imbalanced even a little bit against undead, you need to show proof (i.e. replays). If you can prove imbalance, like how I've seen some MP devs actually tested the at one time overpowered bats vs Rebels some time ago, then stats can be changed. As long as there's proof of imbalance, the developers will consider them and make adjustments.

I think I'll pause my participation in this discussion, I don't want it to result in a heated argument. I'll enter again once I see you post more replays (I'm going to comment on your win once I'm back to my computer).

P.S. The MP dev's might want to take a look at a certain observer and monitor him. (referring to match against watermelon)
Last edited by anakayub on April 27th, 2008, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nataS
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by nataS »

This point has already been brought up before, dragons have better movement. This was one of the main reason I was able to slaughter your army. Even drake clashers can outrun adepts by flying over terrains such as mountains (costing only one mp). Basically you can hit and run during dawn/day and get into favorable attack positions at the end of night time. Even if the undead player tries to attack at night you can bring in saurians and keep your expensive dragons safely. The saurians with skirmisher ability and overall superior dragon mobility are a significant advantage. Dead adepts have the tendency of losing their powerful chill wave with them after dragon mobility has come by.
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

nataS wrote:This point has already been brought up before, dragons have better movement. This was one of the main reason I was able to slaughter your army. Even drake clashers can outrun adepts by flying over terrains such as mountains (costing only one mp). Basically you can hit and run during dawn/day and get into favorable attack positions at the end of night time. Even if the undead player tries to attack at night you can bring in saurians and keep your expensive dragons safely. The saurians with skirmisher ability and overall superior dragon mobility are a significant advantage. Dead adepts have the tendency of losing their powerful chill wave with them after dragon mobility has come by.
sorry, but I laugh at your argument that drakes have better mobility. undead have poison, plague, power, level 0 units. and, attacking at dawn isnt that good idea. attacking at day is better. you will have just 2 turns of offense but you will be not killed by dark adepts which arent in disadvantage. so I think a little more mobility to drakes wouldnt be bad imho.. we will se what replays will say us. :P

anakayub: I dont think you will see match won by me, but meh, I will try my best. :P
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anakayub
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by anakayub »

Again, you might want to check the dictionary first before laughing at others...

Mobility = Ability to move freely and easily.

Drakes have higher MP overall than Undead. They all have minimum of 5 MP (only 1 unit line really) not including traits, and most have 6 or higher. They all also have better movetypes too overall.

Attacking at dawn isn't bad, as the injured/few-units-killed undead has a choice: stay and try to engage, resulting in a massacre during the next turn if not enough are killed, or run away (which undead isn't very good at and needs to be done early and in a well-planned manner).

Yeah you didn't win, so I'll wait for the replays.
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Aethaeryn
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by Aethaeryn »

anakayub wrote:Again, you might want to check the dictionary first before laughing at others...

Mobility = Ability to move freely and easily.

Drakes have higher MP overall than Undead. They all have minimum of 5 MP (only 1 unit line really) not including traits, and most have 6 or higher. They all also have better movetypes too overall.

Attacking at dawn isn't bad, as the injured/few-units-killed undead has a choice: stay and try to engage, resulting in a massacre during the next turn if not enough are killed, or run away (which undead isn't very good at and needs to be done early and in a well-planned manner).

Yeah you didn't win, so I'll wait for the replays.
Agreed. Keep in mind that the big problem of the Undead is their lack of the quick trait for the majority of their units. In Undead v. Drakes, the Drakes choose where the fight is.
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zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

well, today (I know its not tommorow, but meh, I couldnt wait for it) I have played with Gallifax. AND..
..
..
..

guess what?

I have lost terribly, TERRIBLY.. TERRIBLY.... *went mad*...
I have replay here, well, maybe it is not unbalanced.. (but of course I dont want to look like that when I lose I think there is unbalanceness.. :) ) I dont think you need to see this replay.. just you will see how bad player I am.. :) :) :) well, except that one strategy "hide in corner and pray for life".. :D
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irrevenant
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by irrevenant »

At the moment this really is a strategy discussion. I'm moving it over to the strategy forum. If you manage to prove that Drakes are unbalanced, feel free to bring your suggestion back here -- Irrevenant
Noy
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by Noy »

Why move it here? ITs not like there is plenty of these discussions in here already. I'm locking it.
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