making drake fighter more resistant to cold

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zacharias
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making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

Hi!

I think it would be good idea to make drake fighter more resistant to cold. Something like -30% against cold for drake figter, drake warrior and drake blademaster. Why? It imo would be good because (in my opinion) is undead - drake matchup a little unbalanced. I think it would be good, because it would rebalance that matchup. (Yeah, I know, many people will disagree that this matchup is unbalanced, but meh..:) ). And that change would affect only drake - undead battle, because only undead have cold damage.

What do you think about my idea? :)
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Noyga
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by Noyga »

It is true that drakes a quite vulnerable vs undead.
On the other hand undead are quite vulnerable vs drakes too and drakes also have some other advantages too (like their superior mobility).
AFAIK the MP dev don't find the Undead-Drake matchup unbalanced, there might be a few little things that are not perfect, but they are more of the domain of the little detail.

You can consider this topic soft-locked : no need to post if you don't have anything interesting to add
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zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

Well, sorry for posting to "soft - locked" thread, but frankly, I would want to introduce my idea, and honestly I think it would be good when you would let people discuss about it. But when for some odd reason you don´t want this to be discussed, lock the topic :P :)

Main power of drakes is mobility. Problem is that drake clashers aren´t mobile and not even able to defend against dark adept. I think powering drake fighter can be good idea. While drake fighter is mobile, he isn´t that good against undead.

He isnt good against undead because of number of his HP. Dark adept can damage him (at night) that much, that he have -2 - 7 HP. Problem is that he can be killed by walking corpse with that few HPs. That is +7 gold for undead player (or even more, because walking corpse of drake have 21 HP instead of 18 :p). with getting more and more walking corpses, undead player can destroy drake. I think giving drake fighter lesser vulnarability to cold give a drake player a little better mobility, which wouldn´d be bad imo.

also I cant see how are undead vulnarable to drakes.? You dont have to use skeletons at all, only units vulnarable to fire..

(when do you want, I will try to prove that drakes ARE a LITTLE underpowered against undead. just say me what is one of best players of drakes, I will challange him.)
nataS
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by nataS »

We have a rule that if you claim something is unbalanced you have to provide solid evidence. By means of a set of demo's between good players. Keep in mind though that the Dark Adept has had the chill wave attack for a very long time, and the Drake Fighter has -50% cold resist for an at least equally long very long time. Units though aren't balanced against each other, factions are. For example, if your horse dies to a spearman, you don't go like "oh noes they are unbalanced!!11", but instead you look for other units that can do the task (heavy infantry for example). Have you tried to use saurian skirmishers in a battle where your opponent recruits a number of dark adepts?

I also found some stuff for you to read: Note that the How to play Drakes vs Undead guide by JW specifically states: "Saurian Skirmisher: This little guy actually plays a very crucial role in your army against Undead. If the Undead didn't have Adepts you'd simply roll right over them. Well, since Adepts are such a necessary unit in their attack against you you'll need to take them out, and you'll need to be able to do that under any circumstances. The Skirmisher gives you a weapon that not only can hustle around enemy units to strike protected DAs, but he also gets better at night - the time when you'll want them to be dead the fastest. Having a couple of these guys around can really save your ass."

Also be sure to check out all users read this, where it is stated that: "The multiplayer Devs consider the factions to be finely balanced against each other (though they each play differently). If you want to suggest a way to "correct the imbalance" for a faction, please provide a replay demonstrating the imbalance first."
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

You just write the thing that have been written to many times before.. well, write here, or post me best drake players, I will chalange them. ok? will this prove unbalance, if me, will defeat best players in drake undead matchup? I think so.

I have read all these forums at least 2 times before. and :eng: you do need 3 saurian skirmisher to kill 1 dark adept on hill, and then he will kill your 2 saurians with dark adepts and walking corpses. Maybe he will get one walking corpse or two. good deal isnt it? oh, and you need to be lucky! :) (end of sarcasm)

yeah, just write here best players, and I will post replays then.

heh, I am not noob who play one day, he loses and write "omm there must be unbalancing thing!!11 I losed!!11".
EDIT: well, so sorry, that I will provide replay AFTER it have been posted..
nataS
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by nataS »

If you had already read all those topics, you could have at least created a better line of of arguments in your openingspost. Basically it currently states that one specific unit needs better resistance because a unit of an opposite faction has the type of attack.

Your point of saurians having a harder time killing a DA on a hill seems flawed. Basically there are three possible options a) you can try to kill it, b) you can wait until it attacks you, c) you can wait until it retreats. If it's daytime you should be able to kill it with one or more drake clashers combined with other forces. If it's night you can take good positions, and if it attacks, you bring in the saurians. The issue of a dark adept being harder to kill on a mountain is as much of an issue as an elvish archer being harder to kill in a forest. That's how the game works.

The subversiva ladder statistics can probably provide you with some skilled players. You can contact me on the server for a game too, I consider myself to be an OK player - though I don't usually have enough patience for 1on1 games.
Attachments
dragon-vs-undead.gz
Here is one replay for a start, win by me as dragon player.
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zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

nataS wrote:If you had already read all those topics, you could have at least created a better line of of arguments in your openingspost. Basically it currently states that one specific unit needs better resistance because a unit of an opposite faction has the type of attack.

Your point of saurians having a harder time killing a DA on a hill seems flawed. Basically there are three possible options a) you can try to kill it, b) you can wait until it attacks you, c) you can wait until it retreats. If it's daytime you should be able to kill it with one or more drake clashers combined with other forces. If it's night you can take good positions, and if it attacks, you bring in the saurians. The issue of a dark adept being harder to kill on a mountain is as much of an issue as an elvish archer being harder to kill in a forest. That's how the game works.

The subversiva ladder statistics can probably provide you with some skilled players. You can contact me on the server for a game too, I consider myself to be an OK player - though I don't usually have enough patience for 1on1 games.
well, I will try to write it to be not that noobish:

"I think it would be good when weakness of drake fighter for cold would be changed from 50% to 30%. I think it would be good because I think that this battle is unbalanced. I will get some replay with good player on balanced map."

so, why I propose this? Because best dark adept killing unit is drake clasher. but because drake clasher dont have good mobility, best advantage of drakes is lost. So I think addidng resistance to drake fighter resistance to cold will help to drake player have good mobility. As I sayed, I will challange best players here and try to defeat them with undead.

you didn´t understand me. elvish archer in forest can be easly killed by melee units, problem is that dark adept is protected as "hard hitter" (when someone protects elvish archer as hard hitter, he is imho newbie) :). against good player, with vapire bats as fogbusters, you can see when opponent is going to flank you. So only skirmishers are able to attack him. but because of low attack of skirmishers, you need at least two, probably 3 to kill dark adept, which will be revenged. tommorow, I will challange best players - I think replay will end this flame (I dont think it will change resistance of drake fighter though :P )
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TL
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by TL »

Clarification requested: do you think drake fighters need to be given better cold resistance because you do not bother using drake fighters vs. undead, or because you've used drake fighters vs. undead and failed with them?

I cannot claim to be among the best players, but I suspect that many of them already have a preference for drake fighters when fighting undead (or at least when on the attack vs. undead--which is vital during the day, since drakes cannot hold ground vs. undead at night very well.)
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anakayub
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by anakayub »

I cannot claim to be among the best players, but I suspect that many of them already have a preference for drake fighters when fighting undead (or at least when on the attack vs. undead--which is vital during the day, since drakes cannot hold ground vs. undead at night very well.)
I agree; most drake players winning against Ud are already using fighters almost exclusively to clashers to win, as they exploit Ud's greatest weakness: they're slow.

P.S. I think from now on every balancing thread should require a replay from the OP, or else it'll come with an auto-reply: "Where's your proof dude?" :P
Take a breath.
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irrevenant
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by irrevenant »

anakayub wrote:P.S. I think from now on every balancing thread should require a replay from the OP, or else it'll come with an auto-reply: "Where's your proof dude?" :P
That's actually a pretty good idea. These threads so often boil down to personal opinion - it would be nice to have something solid to discuss.
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

Today, I have played 3 matches.

first I have played against some relatively good player (I forgot his name). I won. Here I give replay.

Second, I have played against player named watermelon. This time I losed. I did some fatal errors, mainly I didnt retreat at day. I have replay too.

third, I have played against nataS. I lost again. I had one small but significant error. I dont know why, but I had dark adepts next to walking corpses and bat vampires. so after killing walking corpses, he was able to attack sark adepts. Second, I was a little unlucky and I haven´t abandoned left side to defent against central attack. sorry, I have no replay.

I need to be better to prove something. (heh, lol, I think this is interesting mothod.. if you defeat someone, you are right.. it reminds me of vikings :D )

here are replays. I will return!!
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2p_-_Caves_of_the_Basilisk_replay.gz
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Last edited by zacharias on April 27th, 2008, 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

and here is second replay.

P.S. is it still soft - locked? :)

P.P.S. just because I lost I will not surrender! I still thinks that there should be smaller weakness against cold for drake fighter! :twisted:
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nataS
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by nataS »

Demo #2 of dragon vs undead (with win for dragons), this time zacharias vs me:
dragon-vs-undead2.gz
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I think it is established that there is no unbalancedness proven, I was able to win quite easily with a force of drake fighters and saurian skirmishers combined with a few clashers and a burner. Although I did have some luck, zacharias forces that consisted of dark adepts, and a lot of corpses and bats never really had a chance.

I believe the first mistake zacharias made was to let me take three of his villages for some time. This gave me a small advantage. After that I believe recruiting so many corpses and bats was a mistake. Although they don't cost upkeep they don't serve well for a fighting force and being easily killed combined with no zoc makes them not very good adept guardians either - as showed in the game. I believe one or two ghouls would have been a better choice, they provide zoc, have good resists, and poison any melee unit attacking it. Unless the game takes place on a large map you don't want to have more then one bat, and corpses are nice for taking strategic points and to clone on low hp units but walls of them on bad terrain are a waste of money.
Last edited by nataS on April 27th, 2008, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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anakayub
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by anakayub »

zacharias:

Just prove that you consistently beat other good drake players (I think nataS and those of higher level fit the description) with them on their uber best game, resulting in them having no chance to beat you. :wink: That's the only way to prove that Drakes are disadvantaged, if not it just proves that you're not good enough with Drakes yet, or you're better with Undead.
Take a breath.
zacharias
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Re: making drake fighter more resistant to cold

Post by zacharias »

yeah, I have nothing to say until there arent more replays. tommorow I think there will be 2 or 3 replays again. I have just learned how to play undead against drakes. So you will see 2 or 3 winned battles I believe! :) :) :)

anakayub: there is huge difference between "unwinnable against" and "disadvantaged". problem is that it is hard to prove that someone is disadvantaged.
I think drakes have disadvantage against undead, but its hard to prove it. because:
I am worse player (but after few battles I will be not :) )
disadvantage is small
random number generator disturb matches
no one want to believe that its not perfectly balanced. :D
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