Questions, scenario "The rise of wesnoth" & ot

[TruePurple]

I was wondering what happened if you managed to defeat both orc warlords. I've been playing on medium difficulty and was far into the campaign (the lizard island now) but I was curious so I went back. (plus trying out beta) I set it on easy, but since the back orc is surrounded by snow and mountains (which block the only unit fast on snow, riders) And considering the other orc leader will quickly destroy the wesfolk if not attacked first. It was hard pressed to reach both before the time ran out. I wasn't able to do it.

What would happen if I were to destroy both orc leaders though? Nothing? (except the 75 gold for killing each?)

What were to happen if i were to kill the wesfolk leader? Does it make a big difference to the storyline or battlefields?

Does the game reward you in any way for the really heroic ways of finishing a battle, like waiting till the last ship/killing all 3 orc leaders at the port? Or is it just the gold/experience gotten during it and knowledge of a job well done?

Many of the wesfolk seem so weak. Like poachers seem like a truely pathetic version of archers. Their only redeeming features being the extra defense and faster in shallow water/swamp. Well and being chaotic for night battles. Thug, a weak version of pikman and so on. Not to mention less upgrades on the lot.

Only the thief seems to be a wesfolk unit worthy of combat. The footpad unit worthy of difficult to reach towns.

What am I missing?

How does the terrain thing work anyways? If your unit is on that terrain, do shots miss them more? Even when they are attacking from it?

How does the leadership bonus work? Might it be that the bonus of leadership 3 nearly cancels out the bonuses of being higher level?

[anakayub]

How does the terrain thing work anyways? If your unit is on that terrain, do shots miss them more? Even when they are attacking from it?

How does the leadership bonus work? Might it be that the bonus of leadership 3 nearly cancels out the bonuses of being higher level?

Seriously dude, you don't know? To avoid myself sounding personal, see here.

Edit: can't get the url to work.

[thespaceinvader]

In order, then: it's probably possible to defeat the orc leaders in the second scenario of tRoW. I can;t say i've ever tried, so i'm not sure what would actually happen... I suspect that you'd simply have to play on and beat the outlaw leader anyway.

If you get the Lady Outlaw killed before she reveals herself, she disappears from the plot with some line about how she can't be killed that easily, and then rejoin the plot at the appropriate point to reveal herself. After that, you can't get her killed any more.

There are additional rewards for the 'Heroic' objectives, i think - you get bonus gold.

Don't discount the outlaws, particularly against undead, which you'll be facing a lot of in this campaign - the differing damage types done by the outlaws are VERY valuable here, as undead are weak to impact. The footpad is the only ranged impact you'll get your hands on, and the thug's 4 strikes with the club are very useful. And at higher levels, the poacher line IMHO outshines the human archer as the Hunstman (l3 poacher) gets Marksman, which is very useful for dislodging high-defense enemies. The thief isn't terribly useful on its own, but with backstab it does a decent amount of damage. It's when you can upgrade it to Rogue it becomes extremely useful, as the skirmisher ability allows it to backstab basically at will...

I think you're missing the fact that the different types of damage (blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane) affect different units differently -for example, a skeleton warrior takes 20% extra damage from impact and fire, and 50% extra from arcane, while it takes 60% less from pierce and cold, and 40% less from blade.

The chance of a unit to be hit in any circumstance (apart from a couple which i will explain) is determined by what terrain it is standing on, whether it is defending or attacking. The higher the number, the better - 10% defence means each hit has a 10% chance to miss, and so forth. The exceptions are weapon specials like marksman and magical, which mean that the attack always has at least a minimum chance to hit whatever the terrain of the unit it's hitting - for marksman, the attack has a minimum 60% chance to hit, for magical, a minimum 70% chance to hit.

Leadership increases the attack strength of an adjacent lower-level unit by (IIRC) 25% per level that the leading unit is higher than the led unit. It can make a level 1 equivalent to or better than a level 2 or even 3 unit without leadership in terms of attack strength, and used correctly, it can turn a fight. But it's not better than levelling in any way - it doesn't give the unit any more HP, and it only works when the unit is next to the leader, when it might not always be...

[anakayub]

Thanks thespaceinvader.

But I'd still advise you to read the manual at the url I posted above. It would explain a whole lot of the game mechanics, faster than if you try to learn it by uninformed experience alone.

[thespaceinvader]

Indeed, reading the manual will definitely help. As will playing the tutorial campaigns, Two Brothers and An Orcish incursion.

[TruePurple]

I did play the tutorial campaign.

Does trying to execute her when you defeat her the second time the same as getting her killed in combat?

I think you're missing the fact that the different types of damage (blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane) affect different units differently -for example, a skeleton warrior takes 20% extra damage from impact and fire, and 50% extra from arcane, while it takes 60% less from pierce and cold, and 40% less from blade.

Well i had figured that out. But outside of battles against undead with impact, I would think the units would be made to be equally valuable. And that didn't seem to be the case. Also so far I've encounted only a bit of undead (2 maps of mostly undead UG and 2 more with some undead) mostly orcs.

I thought I remembered poachers only getting to level 2. But then I was playing the nonbeta version for that campaign. So poachers simply suck till they get to level 3, in comparison to regular human archers?

BTW thank you very much for the info

[thespaceinvader]

You HAVE to kill her the second scenario to progress. If you choose the dialogue option to execute her, i believe that you simply lose the ability to recruit any of the outlaws, and she pops up at the appropriate plot point. I don't know, i've not tried it.

The advantage of the poacher line over the bowman line is more strikes. Against a 2hp unit on high defence, 4 strikes is more useful than 3. PLus, they're chaotic, which means you can combine them with loys and keep the pressure on chaotic units at all times of day, and use them to kill the Drakes while they're weakest in peoples in Decline. There are more advantages - better defence on certain terrain, different HP and XP, but i don't know the stats off by heart, so i won't comment on them.

The ranged and melee impact is also valuable against Trolls. And Thugs and their advancements are one of the few units to get 4 strikes in melee right from the start, which is valuable in killing high defence units (see above)...

It's all swings and roundabouts, IYSWIM - massing one sort of unit won't get you anywhere. A good variety means that you're adaptable to any situation.

[TruePurple]

You HAVE to kill her the second scenario to progress.

What are you talking about? No you don't. You can choose dialogue option to spare her. And you can still progress. But the rest of your post makes me think you know that. So this sentence confuses me.

If you choose the dialogue option to execute her, i believe that you simply lose the ability to recruit any of the outlaws, and she pops up at the appropriate plot point. I don't know, i've not tried it.

Well considering she helps you in a number of ways, I wonder how it handles the fact that you tried to kill her, story wise. I suppose she forgives out of necessity or something? I am curious but its a long campaign and I don't want to replay the bugger just to find out.

It would be nice if one of these campaigns, choices you made actually effected the path you took. Not just storyline and futher options but which maps you play on. Is it possible for campaign makers to do that?

[Dodgy Tactician]

Also so far I've encounted only a bit of undead (2 maps of mostly undead UG and 2 more with some undead) mostly orcs.

Chaotic units get a 25% attack bonus at night and take a 25% attack penalty during the day. Lawful units get a 25% attack bonus during the day and take a 25% attack penalty at night. Neutral units never get a bonus, but never take a penalty.

Most of your units are Lawful, but your enemies and the Wesfolk are Chaotic. Therefore, you are at your strongest when the enemy is at its weakest. However, the enemy is at its strongest when you are at your weakest. You can counter that by utilising a mixture of Lawful and Chaotic units, using the Lawful units during the day and the Chaotic units during the night. Quite simply, it means that you can always use the day-night cycle to your advantage by maximising the strength of your units.

For example, take a melee battle between your Royal Guard and an enemy Orcish Warlord.

Royal Guard - 74 HP, Attack 11-4, Resistance 20%, Lawful
Orcish Warlord - 78 HP, Attack 15-3, Resistance 0%, Chaotic

Dawn or Dusk:
Royal Guard attacks at 11-4. Needs 8 hits to take out 78 HP.
Orcish Warlord attacks at 12-3. Needs 7 hits to take out 74 HP.

While the Royal Guard is capable of killing the Orcish Warlord in two attacks with full hits, it is unlikely that this will occur. The Royal Guard has a slight advantage in melee, although it has no ranged attack.

Day:
Royal Guard attacks at 14-4. Needs 6 hits to take out 78 HP.
Orcish Warlord attacks at 9-3. Needs 9 hits to take out 74 HP.

The Royal Guard can take out the Orcish Warlord in two attacks with 75% hits, while not hugely likely, this is a reasonable prospect and therefore two Royal Guards and a third unit to get the XP should be able to take out an Orcish Warlord in a single turn without getting too seriously damaged. The Orcish Warlord needs 100% hits to kill the Royal Guard in three attacks while it can be taken out itself with 50% hits and is clearly at a huge disadvantage.

Night:
Royal Guard attacks at 8-4. Needs 10 hits to take out 78 HP.
Orcish Warlord attacks at 15-4. Needs 5 hits to take out 74 HP.

The Orcish Warlord can take out the Royal Guard in two attacks with an 83% hit rate. The Royal Guard can take out the Orcish warlord in three attacks with an 83% hit rate, while it can be taken out itself with a 56% hit rate. The Orcish Warlord has a clear advantage.

While the Royal Guard is slightly better in melee due to a greater number of attacks and blade resistance (at the cost of no ranged attack at all), the effect of night overcomes this with interest. While there is no good reason to fight one on one unless it is dictated by space requirements, it is a good thing to calculate to show the effect of things like the day-night cycle, leadership and unit traits (which I didn't take into account, although they will also affect the outcome).

I thought I remembered poachers only getting to level 2. But then I was playing the nonbeta version for that campaign. So poachers simply suck till they get to level 3, in comparison to regular human archers?

Up until the latest development version, they only had level 2. Poachers don't "suck" compared to Bowmen, they have more ranged attacks (and hence deal damage more reliably), advance 10 XP earlier and have better defence on several terrain types, despite having a lower ultimate ranged damage potential, half the melee attack and one less HP. Even better, they are chaotic where Bowmen are Lawful and fulfil exactly the same role, so they can easily be rotated in and out (Bowmen by day, Poachers by night). Admittedly, they were hurt by the lack of a level 3 compared to Bowmen, but that has been rectified and they now have an interesting choice. Hunters have the Marksman ability for very reliable ranged damage when attacking while Rangers have an extra movement point, move much faster in Hills and defend better in Hills, Forests and Shallow Water.

[Velensk]

....... Yes this happens in many campains. Ever played Heir to the Throne, or the Rise of Wesnoth, by the time you have gotten to the 5th senario you have made a choice like that.

[thespaceinvader]

You HAVE to kill her the second scenario to progress.

What are you talking about? No you don't. You can choose dialogue option to spare her. And you can still progress. But the rest of your post makes me think you know that. So this sentence confuses me.

I thought you meant during gameplay. I discussed the dialogue options afterwards.

If you choose the dialogue option to execute her, i believe that you simply lose the ability to recruit any of the outlaws, and she pops up at the appropriate plot point. I don't know, i've not tried it.

Well considering she helps you in a number of ways, I wonder how it handles the fact that you tried to kill her, story wise. I suppose she forgives out of necessity or something? I am curious but its a long campaign and I don't want to replay the bugger just to find out.

It would be nice if one of these campaigns, choices you made actually effected the path you took. Not just storyline and futher options but which maps you play on. Is it possible for campaign makers to do that?

Some do. I think the latest edition of the South Guard has a completely different ending depending on a choice you make in a later scenario. And many campaigns, tRoW included, have branches which split up into optional maps then come back to the same scenario - in tRoW you get the option of the Midlands or the Swamp of Esten, which are totally different battles, with different bonuses and play styles. I tend to go for Swamp of Esten for the free loyal white mage.

[santi]

You should NOT be able to kill both orc leaders in the time allowed in the second TROW scenario. I have not looked at the WML, but even if you do
and you still have not defeated Jessica, you probably lose.
Anyway, if you are this good to defeat both orc leaders, you should probably be playing at a higher difficulty. If you are able to do this on hard, I think everybody will be impressed!
And, by the way: In this scenario, you must SAVE the King's guards, as they will be immensely useful later on