Northerners vs. Drakes - Looking for replay

[Radament]

Hello,

I'm looking for Northerners vs. Drake replays where the orcs make the day; the ones i find in old threads are usually too old to be loaded. Having quite some difficulties with this match-up.

thx

[Duthlet]

Here's a old 1.2.x replay of mine. Cackfiend chose Drakes, I went random and got Northeners.
We both didn't play ideal, but maybe it helps you anyway.

[Doc Paterson]

Radament:

A real lot of people have trouble with this match because they greatly overdo the whole "must-get-pierce-damage" thing. If you're getting too many archers, you're going to get leveled during the daytime.

Suggestion: Take at least half of what you were spending on archers and spend it on Grunts. Another pitfall that people run into is thinking that goblins are amazing against Drakes and should be a major part of your spending. Whatever you were spending on Goblins, cut it in half, and spend it on Grunts. Don't be afraid to take losses in order to gain a longterm edge. This doesn't necessarily mean mindlessly putting units on enemy villages where they'll die the very next turn. Do the math though and consider exp. of local units, bearing in mind that holding a village for a full turn is generally a swing of 6 (+2 for you, -1 upkeep for you, -2 for them, +1 upkeep for them). Situations may arise in which a grunt can (statistically) hold a village for around 2 turns against the Drakes, and more than make up for its death with the 12 G swing combined with the spacing/positioning that occurs, elsewhere on the map. If they can't push you far enough back during the day because they're tending to village thieves, they will take more and more losses during the night.

This is of course all very simplified, and, if you could post up a replay, I or others can try to give you more specific advice.

[Yogibear]

A while ago, krotop asked the same and we scheduled a match with me playing northerners. The replay is a little old but still watchable in 1.2.x.

You will notice, that the strategy is mostly based on poison. I learned this from Doc Paterson, watching him play northerners against elves and it seems to work out against drakes pretty well, too.

However you might have to adapt this a little if saurians come into play, as krotop was focusing purely on drakes.

Edit:
Doc, you are welcome to comment on this replay and my statements .

[Doc Paterson]

A while ago, krotop asked the same and we scheduled a match with me playing northerners. The replay is a little old but still watchable in 1.2.x.

You will notice, that the strategy is mostly based on poison. I learned this from Doc Paterson, watching him play northerners against elves and it seems to work out against drakes pretty well, too.

However you might have to adapt this a little if saurians come into play, as krotop was focusing purely on drakes.

Edit:
Doc, you are welcome to comment on this replay and my statements .

I'm not really keen on having more than 1-2 assassins at a time against Drakes; I tend towards a very grunt-heavy assault (part of the rational being that you need to cram as much damage as possible into the attack hexes that are available to you against a defending drake, and attempt to kill them in one turn, preventing them from surviving/escaping. Against Elves, yes, I do tend to use a fair amount; still nowhere near the number of grunts though. That's just the style that suits me best of course- I'm sure that there are other very effective styles of play for Northerner/Drake matches.

I'll take a look at that replay when I have a free minute.

[Duthlet]

Imho assassins die too easily vs Drakes, while their use of poison is rather limited because of the augurs. However, some people seem to use them nicely vs Drakes.

Regarding Yogi's replay I think the grunts were more important than the assassins. (some people recruit hardly grunts vs Drakes; they are doomed to failure) If krotop had recruited some augurs though, the recruitment of assassins might have even backfired.

Like Doc Paterson i recommend a mix of grunts, archers and goblins with grunts as core of the army. If the enemy doesn't recruit augurs, one or two assassins might help, however, they're hard to protect.

PS: Don't believe what I say unless some good player confirms it, as I'm having problems with this match, too.

PPS: It seems Doc beat me to posting.

[IB]

Funny, I'm watching a drake vs northern game right now on 1.3.12.

[Yogibear]

The idea in going for poison is to attack at day and therefore force a dilemma for the drake player: Do i keep my units in battle (they got enough hitpoints to survive 2 or 3 turns, even if poisoned) or do i retreat and cure them?

If he keeps his units attacking, they will be badly wounded when the night falls, thus risking a disaster when orcs are starting their attack.

If on the other hand he cures his units in villages, the crushing power of a drake day-attack is lost due to lack of units and orcs can hold position at day, too.

[Duthlet]

If he keeps his units attacking, they will be badly wounded when the night falls, thus risking a disaster when orcs are starting their attack.

His units will be alright if he uses augurs to block the poison effect.

And even if he doesn't use augurs, you can only eliminate one drake per assassin. But as you are using them at day all - or at least most of these - assassins will be dead. They're too expensive to be used in such a way imho.

[Mabuse]

Grunt, Grunts, Grunts, throw in the one or other Archer - that will be the main bulk of your army - of course depending on map and situation you will have also other units (maybe a wolf rider/assassin from frist round for village grabbing or a naga), but mainly grunts and the one or other archer is needed for support

still its a tough fight, better retreat early if an attack dont go your way, but that also depend on situation (as its sometimes maybe better to press more, but be sure the drakes retaliation will be brutal if they get the opportunity)

so maybe grunts : archer in relation 2 : 1 or something - sure archers are nice and have ranged, but they are also fragile - depend of course also which units the enemy mainly has -

[Mabuse]

so maybe grunts : archer in relation 2 : 1 or something -

or maybe 3:1 ? dont know - however, make sure you have a few grunts
asmentioned if the other has clashers for example or drake fighters then one or two archers are always nice

[Radament]

enlighting replies

i guess i should take it easy with archers. having a meat wall makes sense. I'll experiment and post if an interesting game arises.

Until then, happy new year

[leocrotta]

Duthlet told me earlier about this thread, so here my contribution :

This match shouldn't demonstrate two perfect players facing each other as
norths vs drakes, instead it just shows how fast (and simple) the tide can turn
towards norths if they're a little lucky at the beginning . I think we
both chose factions, but don't be surprised by my starting recruit.

As you can see I favour grunts especially. A lot has been said already, so to make it short here my incomplete and rough opinion about the units' duties while attacking, not regarding obvious attacks like grunts are good at attacking augurs... :

• wolfs : useful for start to get villages, for helping out here and there (8/9mp) and distracting by getting villages grunts cannot reach themselves, remind being more careful since you're moving 17gold (amount 2/3 maybe)

• grunts : keeping the villages (I refer to doc's little economy-analysis about that) they can try doing that even at day to enable you a better and safer preparation for night, so even if they cannot live for 2turns it might be worth it, making it the key-unit (amount unlimited / one for each village )

• gobs : if the game runs further the question of upkeep arises, generally not a bad idea to get some gobs for in between especially vs drakes (I personally don't favour gobs much - well long matches are rare )

• assassins : don't hold villages, don't use for brute force attacks, their job is to annoy the enemy (amount should be limited, maybe 1 for each side of the map)

• archers : of course useful for the attack vs drakes, can be combined with grunts in the process of village-grabbing (at night) - vulnerable at daytime especially, so they have to be more careful than grunts (amount depends, I think I normally have a ratio of ~3:1 (grunts:archers))

• trolls : lineholders as usual when the battle reaches your half, although only useful vs saurians in attacking (amount limited, depends on the amount of saurians)

As I said earlier, it's only a rough opinion, an incomplete guideline, so there's a lot missing for sure, but I'm not the expert who's able to tell all the details, too bad JW's howto play series is missing this chapter.
Well all in all everything depends ... so adjustments have to be made

best regards, nani

p.s.: I just wrote it down the way it came to my mind with not much thought in it, so correct me if I'm totally wrong

[TobiasParker]

Just got my first win from a Northern vs. Drake match. I followed the advice in this column and it was very instrumental. I loaded up on Grunts and fared pretty well until he switched to Saurian mages (augurs?) and a Skirmisher. I had to back off for a full day and then counter attacked at night with 2 archers to weaken them and then finished them off with my Grunts.

[greywolfexcel]

This may be a bit late, but Sargy and I just played a 2v2 that has a Northerners vs Drake matchup. I went grunt-heavy as well and came out ahead (thanks to some coaching from Sargy). Hope this helps.

Edit: I just realized... I was playing against you! What an ironic twist of fate. Well, hopefully someone else will find this replay helpful