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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader » November 25th, 2007, 9:11 am

Interestingly, i already proposed an ability like that for the Lancer. it got shot down, as most mainline suggestions do, but it could still be useful for UMC. Called something like Inspiring Charge, it would negate the 'OMG 12-move leadership' issue by giving the bonus to any adjacent units AFTER the lancer has completed a successful attack. Maybe it could be available as an AMLA, so that you wouldn't be so easily able to get squads of inspiring charging lancers all leadershipping the crap out of each other.
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Post by Xandria » November 25th, 2007, 10:51 am

The whole problem with the "OMG 12 move leadership" issue would be relevant only if you could have but one leadership unit. You can have two, and receive the damage bonus on defense in two places too.
The whole reason for a swift leadership unit is that it could keep up with a force of cavalry and knights, which none of the current leadership units can. Given that the Loyalist swift units are far more combative than, say, elven or drake scouts, such a development would be logical. After all, medieval leaders did rarely WALK into battle, they rode. On a horse. Their standard bearers rode. On a horse, too. They charged. Led by the king. Led -> lead -> leadership.

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Post by thespaceinvader » November 25th, 2007, 11:18 am

To my mind, the problem with 12-move leadership is not it being applied to two fronts, it is it being applied across 12-moves worth of one front. The longest move distance of any other leadershipping unit is 6 IIRC, which means the Lancer would be able to apply its bonus to twice as many units per turn, whih is an unbalancing amount of extra damage...
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Post by Xandria » November 25th, 2007, 3:43 pm

It would not be a problem in MP, as noone is going tobe able to level a lvl 3 lancer in a serious game (I do not consider 30% XP games to be serious...), and who cares in a campaign? O.o

Aaand you still can have, like, two Elvish Captains on one front.

Its only advantage would be that it can add leadership to a bold flanking move, where a foot leader could not keep up. The right thing for a heroic campaign.
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Post by thespaceinvader » November 25th, 2007, 3:46 pm

Yuo can indeed. But two units require twice as much XP to level, so there's a trade-off.
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Post by Xandria » November 25th, 2007, 3:48 pm

Uhm. Haven't actually seen many fronts where the extra move would be all too useful anyway.
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Post by thespaceinvader » November 25th, 2007, 3:52 pm

Personally, ditto. I tend to use my leadershipping units very inefficiently anyway, it's one of the nuances of wesnoth i've not yet mastered. But for those who do, the extra movement of the lancer could be a tide-turner.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » November 25th, 2007, 4:01 pm

One could simply give the level 3 lancer level 2 leadership. i.e., it would only give a 25% bonus and only to level 1 units.

This makes it much more comparable to a pair of Captains.
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Post by Aethaeryn » November 25th, 2007, 5:09 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:One could simply give the level 3 lancer level 2 leadership. i.e., it would only give a 25% bonus and only to level 1 units.

This makes it much more comparable to a pair of Captains.
It makes sense, knights would not want to be led by lancers, and probably most of the elite lvl 2s.

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Post by JW » November 25th, 2007, 5:19 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:One could simply give the level 3 lancer level 2 leadership. i.e., it would only give a 25% bonus and only to level 1 units.

This makes it much more comparable to a pair of Captains.
Hmm. Now that is a thought worth entertaining perhaps. How else would it be upgraded though to make it a worthwhile level 3 unit, and how would that be done without overpowering it even more?

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » November 25th, 2007, 5:58 pm

Don't ask me, I don't think the Lancer is worthwhile in the first place. :o
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Post by Aethaeryn » November 25th, 2007, 6:09 pm

JW wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:One could simply give the level 3 lancer level 2 leadership. i.e., it would only give a 25% bonus and only to level 1 units.

This makes it much more comparable to a pair of Captains.
Hmm. Now that is a thought worth entertaining perhaps. How else would it be upgraded though to make it a worthwhile level 3 unit, and how would that be done without overpowering it even more?
HP only? Leadership units don't have the best attack, and the lancer can already do a lot of damage with its three-strike charging attack.

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Post by Xandria » November 25th, 2007, 8:44 pm

The 'Dauntless' ability seen with the Windsong might come in handy with the lvl 3 lancer, doubling his positive resistances when he charges, i.e. Blade, Impact, Arcane. He would be still prone to dying horribly to Pikemen.

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Post by Noy » November 25th, 2007, 9:12 pm

Xandria wrote:It would not be a problem in MP, as noone is going tobe able to level a lvl 3 lancer in a serious game (I do not consider 30% XP games to be serious...), and who cares in a campaign? O.o

Aaand you still can have, like, two Elvish Captains on one front.

Its only advantage would be that it can add leadership to a bold flanking move, where a foot leader could not keep up. The right thing for a heroic campaign.
Play a TotN or a long term FFA like westeros. Lvl3s are not as rare as you might think, and balance in those cases is absolutely vital so that you don't have a uber unit that skews the game.

If you want to keep arguing, fine by me, but its not going to change. We've made our design preference and its going to stay that way.
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Post by Weeksy » November 25th, 2007, 9:41 pm

perhaps a unit with level 1 leadership, pierce resist -10%, 5 more hp, and setup in such a way that it was UMC only... but guess what: we don't have any art! come back when you have some and people might begin consideration.
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