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Jozrael
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Post by Jozrael » January 22nd, 2008, 2:13 am

Not to mention the DA line.

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » January 22nd, 2008, 1:02 pm

Sure, 20% Arcane resist is a little too low for the Silver Mage. My greatest problem with him is the rather feeble attack - 9-4 will not make my day. So many other combat-oriented level 3's pack more punch.

An assassin squad of silver mages can hurt real bad though.
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Post by Dodgy Tactician » January 22nd, 2008, 3:06 pm

If the Silver Mage has too high an attack though, then it removes the Archmage's one main advantage (as well as making the Silver Mage extremely powerful). I agree that the arcane resistance should be higher though.

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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn » January 22nd, 2008, 10:38 pm

I also agree that he should have a higher arcane resistance, one of his roles is to be superior in mage-to-mage combat.
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Post by Doc Paterson » January 22nd, 2008, 11:37 pm

Aethaeryn wrote:one of his roles is to be superior in mage-to-mage combat.
It is?
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn » January 22nd, 2008, 11:47 pm

Doc Paterson wrote:
Aethaeryn wrote:one of his roles is to be superior in mage-to-mage combat.
It is?
Why else does he have unusual resistances to mage damage types such as cold and fire? He at least is superior in defending ranged attacks from magi (and then retaliating with a decent attack), with the exception being the now-arcane ones - elvish sorceress and dark sorcerer.
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TruePurple
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Post by TruePurple » January 23rd, 2008, 6:55 am

Humans start out with 20% arcane resistance, so its nothing special for silver mages to have it. As far as I remember all other mages have it also being human.

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Post by energyman76c » January 23rd, 2008, 10:35 am

Aethaeryn wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote: It is?
Why else does he have unusual resistances to mage damage types such as cold and fire? He at least is superior in defending ranged attacks from magi (and then retaliating with a decent attack), with the exception being the now-arcane ones - elvish sorceress and dark sorcerer.
they have a higher resistance against fire than other mages. But all mages have the same resistance against arcane. And since the other mages do a lot more damage & have more hp, a silver mage is pretty much useless against other mages. If you want to kill mages, get lancers.

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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn » January 23rd, 2008, 10:02 pm

energyman76c wrote:
Aethaeryn wrote: Why else does he have unusual resistances to mage damage types such as cold and fire? He at least is superior in defending ranged attacks from magi (and then retaliating with a decent attack), with the exception being the now-arcane ones - elvish sorceress and dark sorcerer.
they have a higher resistance against fire than other mages. But all mages have the same resistance against arcane. And since the other mages do a lot more damage & have more hp, a silver mage is pretty much useless against other mages. If you want to kill mages, get lancers.
Meh, I knew I shouldn't have made my comment because people would nitpick the word "role" - what I meant to say is that the mage has been superior in combat (at least defending) against other magi, but now that some do arcane he doesn't have it. And no, not all magi have 20% arcane resist - all humans have 20% arcane resist. The lich has a significant arcane weakness, and the elven magi also have an arcane weakness (though slight). Considering the silver mage used to defend all magical attacks in default with a significant resist and now only has the default human resist for 1/3 of the magical attacks, it is a new unconsidered weakness.

No, I'm not a complete idiot to recruit an army of entire silver magi to kill magi. :roll: The silver mage is the best mage at mage-to-mage combat though.
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Post by TruePurple » January 25th, 2008, 2:28 am

Why turn your trapper into a ranger instead of a huntsman?

Ranger does 2 more melee damage for the cost of 2 range damage. It has slightly more HP (3hp more) But huntsman has marksmanship. And one might as well specialize in one kind of attack anyways.

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Post by joshudson » January 25th, 2008, 2:53 am

It still is a natural counter against arcmage, and might even hold its own against great mage, and it doesn't matter who strikes first.
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Post by Dodgy Tactician » January 25th, 2008, 1:47 pm

It still is a natural counter against arcmage, and might even hold its own against great mage, and it doesn't matter who strikes first.
Not really if you run the numbers.

Even if you account for the fire resistances, the Great Mage does more damage per hit and has more HP.
Great Mage attacks at 16x.5 = 8 per hit. Silver Mage has 48 HP, so 6 hits will kill it (2 turns at 75% hit rate or 3 turns at 50% hit rate).
Silver Mage attacks at 9x.7 = 6 per hit. Great Mage has 65 HP, so 11 hits will kill it(3 turns at 91.7% hit rate or 4 turns at 68.8% hit rate).

The Silver Mage is about equal to Archmage.
Archmage attacks at 12x.5 = 6 per hit. Silver Mage has 48 HP, so 8 hits will kill it (2 turns at 100% hit rate or 3 turns at 66.7% hit rate).
Silver mage attacks at 9x.8 = 7 per hit. Archmage has 54 HP, so 8 hits will kill it (2 turns at 100% hit rate or 3 turns at 66.7% hit rate).

Let's fight a Necromancer though (assuming all turns are dawn/dusk).
Archmage attacks at 12 per hit. Necromancer has 70 HP, so 6 hits will kill it (2 turns at 75% hit rate or 3 turns at 50% hit rate).
Necromancer attacks at 17 per hit. Archmage has 54 HP, so 4 hits will kill it (2 turns at 100% hit rate or 3 turns at 66.7% hit rate).
Archmage is superior.

Silver Mage attacks at 9 per hit. Necromancer has 70 HP, so 8 hits will kill it (2 turns at 100% hit rate or 3 turns at 66.7% hit rate).
Necromancer attacks at 17x.5 = 9 per hit. Silver Mage has 48 HP, so 6 hits will kill it (3 turns at 100% hit rate or 4 turns at 75% hit rate).
Silver Mage is massively superior.

Now let's try fighting an Ancient Lich (assuming all turns are dawn/dusk).
Archmage attacks at 12x1.2 = 14 per hit. Ancient Lich has 80 HP, so 6 hits will kill it (2 turns at 75% hit rate or 3 turns at 50% hit rate).
Ancient Lich attacks at 13 per hit. Archmage has 54 HP, so 5 hits will kill it (1 turn at 100% hit rate or 2 turns at 50% hit rate).
Ancient Lich wipes floor with Archmage.

Great Mage attacks at 16x1.2 = 19 per hit. Ancient Lich has 80 HP, so 5 hits will kill it (2 turns at 62.5% hit rate or 3 turns at 41.7% hit rate).
Ancient Lich attacks at 13 per hit. Great Mage has 65 HP, so 5 hits will kill it (1 turn at 100% hit rate or 2 turns at 50% hit rate).
Ancient Lich is superior to Great Mage, but will probably be fairly easily killed afterwards.

Mage of Light attacks at 15x1.25x1.5 = 28 per hit. Ancient Lich has 80 HP, so 3 hits will kill it (1 turn at 100% hit rate or 2 turns at 50% hit rate).
Ancient Lich attacks at 13x.75 = 10 per hit. Mage of Light has 47 HP, so 5 hits will kill it (1 turn at 100% hit rate or 2 turns at 50% hit rate).
Mage of Light is arguably superior due to being more likely to get full hits in one turn and if so, getting them in earlier, but it's still not an enticing battle.

Silver Mage attacks at 9x1.2 = 11 per hit. Ancient Lich has 80 HP, so 8 hits will kill it (2 turns at 100% hit rate or 3 turns at 66.7% hit rate).
Ancient Lich attacks at 13x.5 = 7 per hit. Silver Mage has 48 HP, so 7 hits will kill is (2 turns at 70% hit rate or 3 turns at 46.7% hit rate).
The Ancient Lich is superior, but neither can finish the other off in a single round.

Only the Silver Mage guarantees survival against an Ancient Lich's retaliation. Therefore, using Silver Magi to whittle his HP down before finishing him off with whatever you have left (or needs the XP or is most likely to kill him or whatever) is the choice least likely to see your high level units being killed.
Why turn your trapper into a ranger instead of a huntsman?

Ranger does 2 more melee damage for the cost of 2 range damage. It has slightly more HP (3hp more) But huntsman has marksmanship. And one might as well specialize in one kind of attack anyways.
A Ranger's advantages are in its versatility rather than its offensive power.

Huntsman Advantages:
- 2 more ranged damage.
- Marksman ability on ranged attack.

Ranger advantages:
- 3 more HP.
- 2 more melee damage.
- 1 more MP.
- Doubled move speed over hills.
- 10% better defence in Forest (70% to 60%) and Hills (60% to 50%).
- 20% better defence in Shallow Water (40% to 20%).

A Ranger is more likely to survive being attacked and can chase down injured Orcs and Dwarves through hills (except quick Orcs, which a non-quick Ranger can only match). 7-4 isn't exactly a huge melee, but it can for example allow a Ranger to beat a swordsman in one on one combat overnight, as accounting for resistances and time of day adjustments, it does 7-4 melee damage with 60 HP compared to the Swordsman's 6-4 damage with 55 HP. Given that the Ranger would use his ranged attack on his turn as well (at 9-4 damage with no retaliation), the Swordsman is toast. A Huntsman couldn't do that and if the battle went against him, couldn't escape. On the other hand, only a quick Swordsman can keep up with a non-quick Ranger and even then, he loses three hexes a turn through hills.

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Post by Weeksy » January 25th, 2008, 8:56 pm

so silver mage dies v. the great mage, will own a normal lich, and has greater survivability v. necromancer or ancient lich than an archmage. Not to mention the fact that they can run away if the battle goes against them, all they need is to get to a village.

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Post by TruePurple » January 25th, 2008, 10:43 pm

Dodgy Tactician wrote:7-4 isn't exactly a huge melee, but it can for example allow a Ranger to beat a swordsman in one on one combat overnight,
"beat"? A ranger isn't going to kill a swordsman during night with one melee retaliation. Especially with a a swordsmans sword resistance.
Dodgy Tactician wrote:Given that the Ranger would use his ranged attack on his turn as well (at 9-4 damage with no retaliation), the Swordsman is toast. A Huntsman couldn't do that and if the battle went against him, couldn't escape.
A rangers range attack is 7-4 not 9-4. A huntsmans range is 9-4 and with the marksmanship could ignore all sorts of defenses. Where as a rangers mild extra bonuses to defenses only apply in limited situations. The swordsman would be more likely to be toast from the huntsman then from the ranger.

Also despite its better defenses in water(and even with double defenses on water, its still better that it not be caught in it) and forests, a ranger isn't any faster in these. It really should be. Then it might be a more reasonable alternative to huntsman.
Last edited by TruePurple on January 25th, 2008, 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Samantha » January 25th, 2008, 10:51 pm

As for the huntsman, it's not just about the unit itself. Marksman is an enormous tactical advantage for the entire squad, it allows the army to dislodge units in high defense.

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