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Dodgy Tactician
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Post by Dodgy Tactician » January 11th, 2008, 11:14 am

Javeliers: I only level a Spearmen to a Jav if I got a couple of Swordsmen/Pikemen already. Their lack of lvl3 and low hp makes them too vulnerable in most later campaign-scenarios. You don't need a Jav to weaken/kill the troll - that the lvl3 Mage's job. You don't need a Jav to weaken/kill the Griphon or Drake - that is the job of the lvl2/3 bowman.
That does make sense, but remember that a Javelineer is a lot less vulnerable than any of the other level 2 units that you mentioned. Drakes will attempt to burn Swordsmen and Pikemen and take on Bowmen in melee. Javelineers are reasonable both in melee and at range, although they do suffer in campaign from the lack of a level 3 upgrade.
One Lancer is way enough to spread some chaos and kill some lvl1 reinforcements on their way. More is usually not really usefull. Lancers are just too easily killed to invest to much into them. So one lancer yes, two lancers only if I had luck and an army of paladins already.
Generally, I avoid Lancers altogether in campaign. I can see the advantage, but my playing style means that I get more out of a Knight than a Lancer, with the extra level being a further advantage.

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Post by Grand Marshal Aditya » January 12th, 2008, 1:48 am

First of all, in campaigns you should only be getting one lancer, if at all. (I suggest you do to tear apart enemies...)

Lancers are my favorite loyalists, with Grand Knight as a close second...I especially love their amazing movement and ability to attack retreating wounded troops in the back lines of the enemies...

When you are upgrading to lancer, try to get a quick one to do it for 11 movement...
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Federalist marshal
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Post by Federalist marshal » January 12th, 2008, 3:35 am

I find all three of the above mentioned a real pain to deal with without lvl 3 units. If they could go to lvl 3 then I think they'd be more powerful than other lvl 3 units. Or at least that's what my experience tells me.

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Post by Flametrooper » January 12th, 2008, 3:43 am

Exactly, that's why they don't go to level 3.
I still hold by my position that Lancers are awesome in campaigns, and so are Gryphon Masters, even if neither level up. Then again I like my units mobile.

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Federalist marshal
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Post by Federalist marshal » January 13th, 2008, 1:00 am

I don't use lancers or javelineers simply due to force of habit. I'm trying to get over that, however.

TruePurple
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Post by TruePurple » January 13th, 2008, 10:29 am

Javelineers are great against elves, especially in multiplayer. Every other upgrade leaves your exspear man with no range, even the level 3's(assuming you can get em in multiplayer)

Elves are just loaded with range. Without range retaliation the units a free pin cushion. Not only do javelineers got that range retaliation they got great pierce resistance unlike the rest.

So they dont get sword resistance if your enemy is making lots of elven swordsman. On the other hand swordsman dont have that much sword resistance and even elven fighters have range. So your enemy is forced to melee your mostly still melee unit.

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JW
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Post by JW » January 13th, 2008, 11:19 am

TruePurple wrote:Elves are just loaded with range. Without range retaliation the units a free pin cushion. Not only do javelineers got that range retaliation they got great pierce resistance unlike the rest.
Pike also has 60% unless it changed. But yes, he has no ranged.

TruePurple
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Post by TruePurple » January 15th, 2008, 8:15 am

Not even halibarder the final level 3 gets more then 40% pierce. Javelineers get a very respectable range attack for the loss of a little damage, well when compared to the other level 2 upgrades. But those other level 3's can do some great damage if you can get to them.(not that, thats that good for helping other units level)

One question of upgrade choice, why pick the royal guard path when halibarder does about the same in damage but has alot more flexibility(and first strike on one of its attacks)

Dodgy Tactician
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Post by Dodgy Tactician » January 15th, 2008, 10:33 am

Because the Royal Guard is strong against different opponents.

A Royal Guard has 6 MP, so it can get about more than a Halberdier, it also has 20% Blade and Impact resistance, so against Northerners in particular, it takes less damage from their big hitters. Four attacks make it more reliable at dishing out damage as well.

Although the Halberdier has more flexibility in terms of its damage type and firststrike, the Royal Guard has more flexibility in terms of speed and more reliable damage. Its damage resistances also cover a wider variety of enemy melee attacks.
But those other level 3's can do some great damage if you can get to them.(not that, thats that good for helping other units level)
Actually, it's great for helping other units level. Consider an enemy Orcish Warlord, attack him with two Royal Guards, reducing him to something like 3 HP. Now finish him off with an Intelligent Elvish Shaman. She is now only 2 XP from levelling, so you use her slow attack on something with no ranged attack (Trolls, Grunts or Wolf Riders), which will still level her up, while allowing your other low-level units to take the kills there.

You use the high level units to seriously injure the high level enemy units so that your low level units can finish them off.

TruePurple
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Post by TruePurple » January 15th, 2008, 12:17 pm

Well royal guard/swordsman doesn't have any extra resistance over halibarder. Its just in a different area('s). Considering most nonmagic range is piercing and without range of its own a Halberdier is going to be much better equipped to deal with that fact over a royal guard who has no such resistance. I can see more reliable damage issue. But I think that mostly applies to when a unit has only a little bit of health left anyways no? The extra movement is always good, but you want such protecting units to stay with the slower units they protect anyways?

And the option to use piercing when your enemy is using nonwolfrider mounts etc is very nice.

So besides northerners, why royal guard instead of halberdiers?
Last edited by TruePurple on January 15th, 2008, 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius » January 15th, 2008, 12:41 pm

Dodgy Tactician wrote: Actually, it's great for helping other units level. Consider an enemy Orcish Warlord, attack him with two Royal Guards, reducing him to something like 3 HP. Now finish him off with an Intelligent Elvish Shaman. She is now only 2 XP from levelling, so you use her slow attack on something with no ranged attack (Trolls, Grunts or Wolf Riders), which will still level her up, while allowing your other low-level units to take the kills there.

You use the high level units to seriously injure the high level enemy units so that your low level units can finish them off.
Since when are Elvish Shamans and Royal Guards in the same faction wise guy? :lol:
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energyman76c
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Post by energyman76c » January 15th, 2008, 12:45 pm

Darth Jordius wrote:
Dodgy Tactician wrote: Actually, it's great for helping other units level. Consider an enemy Orcish Warlord, attack him with two Royal Guards, reducing him to something like 3 HP. Now finish him off with an Intelligent Elvish Shaman. She is now only 2 XP from levelling, so you use her slow attack on something with no ranged attack (Trolls, Grunts or Wolf Riders), which will still level her up, while allowing your other low-level units to take the kills there.

You use the high level units to seriously injure the high level enemy units so that your low level units can finish them off.
Since when are Elvish Shamans and Royal Guards in the same faction wise guy? :lol:
oh, there is at least one campaign. I just don't remember which one.

Dodgy Tactician
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Post by Dodgy Tactician » January 17th, 2008, 2:25 pm

Since when are Elvish Shamans and Royal Guards in the same faction wise guy? :lol:
Yeah, I really shouldn't post when I'm rushing off to a lecture. :oops:

I gave an example with the Rebels, remembered that that was irrelevant to a discussion about Royal Guards and failed to change all of it to Loyalists. Replace Elvish Shaman with Bowman and you get the same effect but in a way that's realistically possible (although you need a few more XP beforehand/afterwards to level it up).
Well royal guard/swordsman doesn't have any extra resistance over halibarder. Its just in a different area('s). Considering most nonmagic range is piercing and without range of its own a Halberdier is going to be much better equipped to deal with that fact over a royal guard who has no such resistance. I can see more reliable damage issue. But I think that mostly applies to when a unit has only a little bit of health left anyways no? The extra movement is always good, but you want such protecting units to stay with the slower units they protect anyways?
The point of the Royal Guard is that it is very powerful in melee but is fairly easy to kill if you have sufficient ranged units. However, it takes at least two units to kill it (assuming it isn't attacked by Horsemen, which is fairly risky) even if they get high hit rates. There is a good chance that you will need three units to kill it off and if you fail, then it can do serious damage to any ranged unit. During the day, it's one of the most powerful melee units in the game, although it does suffer more to ranged units.

Having the capacity to move faster than the units that you are protecting is always a good thing. That way, a single unit can get ahead to put itself in between the protected units and the enemy from a rear guard position with the formation losing less speed. It also allows you to get him across a large battlefield in less time, so the units you are trying to support have a better chance of being alive when he gets there.

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Post by anakayub » January 17th, 2008, 2:42 pm

TruePurple wrote: So besides northerners, why royal guard instead of halberdiers?
Another reason is that an offensive moves are more decisive. To beat the enemy, you need to attack in one way or another, and royal guards are especially good at dealing blade damage (which has less units with resistances as compared to pierce) and have the extra movement. By taking the initiative or making a threat in close range, you force the opponent to react, which is what you want as it limits the opponent's options. It's a similar concept to using mages. A threat of mages able to kill a critical unit is significant in a game.
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Federalist marshal
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Post by Federalist marshal » January 18th, 2008, 12:30 am

It's a similar concept to using mages. A threat of mages able to kill a critical unit is significant in a game.
Problem is, it'd better be done in one turn or the mages are surely done for.
Speaking of mages and neglected promotion paths, does anyone use arch mages more than silver mages?

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