Neglected promotion paths

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Incompetent
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Neglected promotion paths

Post by Incompetent » November 22nd, 2007, 3:17 pm

Some units have promotion paths such that some reach level 2 and the others reach level 3. But in some cases, I can't really see myself ever following those that finish at level 2 - not just because they finish there, but because the unit you get at the end isn't what I'd want. In particular: when would I use Lancers, Javelineers and Troll Rocklobbers?

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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader » November 22nd, 2007, 3:36 pm

FPI. It adds flavour and spice to have not all lines achieve not al,l possible levels.

It's a purely personal decision whether or not to use the ones you mention. Personally i don't, but a lot f people like Lancers for the sheer amount of damage they can deal, particularly to ranged attacking units, and for their speed. I personally used Rocklobbers in the past for a strong impact ranged attack.

Thouhg i agree, these lines can be somewhat abortive in campaigns, depending on your play style.
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zookeeper
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Re: Neglected promotion paths

Post by zookeeper » November 22nd, 2007, 3:40 pm

Incompetent wrote:In particular: when would I use Lancers, Javelineers and Troll Rocklobbers?
Lancers to have a higher chance to kill (three strikes opposed to two makes a big difference) at a reduced cost (lancer is in many ways better than the lvl2 knight and a grand knight takes much longer to get and/or replace if it dies). Javelineers and rocklobbers simply for ranged damage.

Of course your choice depends on whether you're playing a short MP game, a long MP game, a short campaign, a long campaign, etc. Some units are the better choice in some situations, even if those situations are rare, and some are more useful more often.

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Post by Trau » November 22nd, 2007, 9:22 pm

You have a substantial advantage in having an upgrade that can change a unit's role, so the restrictions put on most stunted paths are there to offset that. That's the rationale I'm seeing... but Horsemen work differently because charge is such an extremely powerful ability, so I could see why it's the Lancer is limited while the Knight is not.

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » November 22nd, 2007, 10:57 pm

Well - in most campaigns the lancer is pointless, true. An assassin squad formed of lancers could be useful. Plus, they are easy to replace.
Also, in MP versus the drakes the javelineer is not a bad choice.
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JW
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Post by JW » November 23rd, 2007, 8:41 am

Xandria wrote:Well - in most campaigns the lancer is pointless, true. An assassin squad formed of lancers could be useful. Plus, they are easy to replace.
Also, in MP versus the drakes the javelineer is not a bad choice.
The Lancer is one of my favorite weapons in HttT. You can decimate your opponents so quickly with one, and all you ahve to do is level up a Horseman that you get access to in level 2 (?). Lancers are underappreciated.

9-2 Charge -> 12-3 Charge.

Seriously.

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » November 23rd, 2007, 9:40 am

Aye, it hurts. Plus, the chap can get a leadership bonus, much unlike the Grand Knight.
Sadly, the lancer kills often, wasting XP which you could have fed to mages, shamans etc. But nobody's perfect.
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santi
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Post by santi » November 23rd, 2007, 11:16 am

The main reason why Lancers are useful in HttT, especially in Test of the Clans, is that HttT is nowadays too easy, even on hard. On TROW for example, which is(or at least was) much harder last time I played it,
and where high HP units to hold the line is much more important than
assasins, lancers are just a waste.

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Post by Nebiros » November 24th, 2007, 3:49 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:FPI. It adds flavour and spice to have not all lines achieve not al,l possible levels.
Well, I disagree with that part. All of the units the OP mentioned are useful, but then you get smacked in the face with a wet fish for using them: No level 3 for you! All the exp you earn with that level 2 unit is thrown away! I don't see what that adds to the game.

Sometimes it doesn't matter because the game wasn't going to last that long anyway (actually, a lot of the time), but it's still a gratuitous insult. Worse, it's one that some factions don't have to deal with: name a rebel unit that maxes out at level 2. Some merman branches maybe? But every important unit can go to level 3, compared to knalgans where only about half of theirs can. And none of those are a choice to sacrifice level 3 potential: those units just can't reach level 3, period. Even when art and stats have already been created the level 3 outlaws are excluded from Default for no apparent reason.

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper » November 24th, 2007, 3:51 pm

Nebiros wrote:Even when art and stats have already been created the level 3 outlaws are excluded from Default for no apparent reason.
They most likely will be included everywhere when the art is finished. Currently it is not.

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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn » November 24th, 2007, 4:23 pm

An informed discussion needs to be informed. Let's examine every unit that doesn't have a lvl 3 from here - the master list of every mainstream unit in the current development release. I'll even only list the ones in factions since they only matter for MP. Please note that the majority of units in any given faction have lvl 3s, with the exception of the Knaglans with which the outlaw branch is getting lvl 3s as zookeeper said.

Drakes
Saurian Oracle/Soothsayer - fits to the theme of the unit

Knaglans
Beserker - very specialist unit, probably wouldn't survive to promote if there was a lvl 3
Gryphon Master - scout unit, doesn't need a lvl 3; even if you argue unfairness as opposed to factions that have lvl 3 scouts, please note that if you are making enough kills with your scout to get him to lvl 3, you are not playing right (especially in a long MP game). They're not useful at all underground, so they'd only be useful in half the scenarios of a dwarvish campaign - to make up for lack of mobility of the dwarves.

Loyalists
Lancer - extremely powerful attack, though weak HP. No matter how many times suggested, there's no balanced way to upgrade this unit. It doesn't fit its theme and use. It also forces you to make a choice from the horseman
Javelineer - again, a specialist unit forked off of a complete line

Northerners
Orcish Slayer - again, a special case unit that is used for the purpose of poisoning enemies. it still has its use, and you shouldn't really be making kills with him.
Goblin Impaler/Rouser - adds to the theme of really weak lvl 0s - they're not supposed to last long
Troll Rocklobber - absolutely useless most of the time, but I guess you could use them like an impact thunderstick with regeneration in special cases to be very deadly
Goblin Pillager - I love this choice. it's a very useful unit with its slow (you should still have 1 or 2 even in campaigns) and on MP you should rarely have the Goblin Knight choice. It forces you to choose in campaigns, esp. since the Goblin Knight upgrades to a goblin with poison.

Rebels
None.

Undead
Blood Bat - fits with the theme of a weak scout
Souless - see goblin impaler/rouser; actually more useful than them because they can multiply when used right
Necrophage - extremely useful village holder, especially with the special AMLA choice to completely restore health
Deathblade - compare this to the Lancer/Knight choice. survivability vs. pure power, although the other branch's lvl 3 is probably generally stronger.

Note how no stubbed line hurts balance. It merely adds to the flavor. The vast majority of units have lvl 3s, the ones without them all have their own uses anyway. Even the Javelineer is useful - in matchups against drakes where they breath fire and pierce is useful to hurt them.

Once you understand how all of these units work, you realize that not having a lvl 3 doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. In the case of the Deathblade, Lancer, and Goblin Pillager forks, these specialists probably see more use in MP than their lvl 3 branches, where lvl 3 is rarely reached.

In most cases, lvl 2-only units are specialist units and a lvl 3 of them would be too overpowered in the special cases where they are useful. In the rest, it's a thematic choice and wouldn't make sense - imagine a lvl 0 goblin branch going up to lvl 3!

Yes, the Rebels have no lvl 2-only units, but if anything, it works against them and not for them. It also fits with their theme where every life is valued as opposed to the factions with lots of expendables (Northerners, Undead).

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » November 24th, 2007, 8:09 pm

Actually, there is a possible and not overpowered upgrade to the lancer: a mounted standard bearer with leadership. Fits his glamour and bravery theme.

As for the gryphon master - it's actually very easy to kill with this scout: 15-2 is by no means weak. He is excellent for reaching wounded units and finishing them off. A lvl 3 is easily done by adding a ranged attack, say, rock-dropping. If a goblin can reach level 3, why can't a dwarf?

I'm fine with the pillager and rocklobber stopping at level 2, likewise with gobbos and zombies and bats being limited to level 1.
As for the Footpads and Poachers, they are untrained soldiers and auxilliaries, and thus being limited to level 2 is OK unless the campaign focuses upon them (like Liberty).

As for the Javelineer, I cannot picture choosing him in any situation except when fighting drakes in MP - the Longbowman is superior in a ranged role.
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Post by Trau » November 24th, 2007, 9:12 pm

I've always imagined Lancers not as glamorous, but fierce and gritty... sort of like the Hells Angels of Wesnoth. :P

Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing a level 3 version of Javelineers or Rocklobbers, as they seem to me more like generalists than their counterparts, who only have melee attacks, especially in the case of the Spearman where the Javelineer is the only upgrade that doesn't lose the ranged attack. That's not to say they're necessary when, in fact, no level 3 seems necessary in a multiplayer game where units rarely make it that far.
Last edited by Trau on November 24th, 2007, 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Weeksy » November 24th, 2007, 9:13 pm

How is 12 MP leadership balanced in any way shape or form? being able to help two seperate fronts all get +25% is AMAZING. Besides, one of the reasons there aren't any level 3 lancers is to show their fragility.

As for the gryphon master, a level 3 for this would probably mean a bit more hp and a bit more melee damage, probably putting this over the line of 'too incredible for most campaigns' and thus severely limiting gryphons' involvement in the story.
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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » November 24th, 2007, 11:28 pm

Hm. In multiplayer, you most often won't get a level 3 guy. And nothing keeps you from getting a leader for each of two separate task forces in a campaign.
I just miss the noble standard bearer heading a thundering cavalry charge.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
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