my Outpost hurts Hard

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Soliton
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Re: my Outpost hurts Hard

Post by Soliton » August 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm

josteph wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 6:12 pm
gnombat wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 12:55 am
Of course, you can play the game any way you want, but ... I would be surprised if everyone played the game that way. And even if everyone did play the game that way, I wouldn't expect them to all agree on what actions would require foreknowledge.
That's precisely why we should coordinate expectations and agree on whether even difficult scenarios should be winnable on the first attempt or not. I've always been told that SP scenarios are supposed to be winnable on first attempt, so I try to play this way. If I were told that this campaign or that does not attempt to be winnable on the first attempt, or that the hardest difficulty is not meant to be taken on the first playthrough, I'd do that.
How can a scenario be winnable at the 5th attempt but not the first? Of course every scenario must be winnable at the first attempt (given you have sufficient gold/recalls for higher difficulties) or it's not winnable at the 5th attempt either. If the point is that tomato surprises should be avoided then I'm sure everyone agrees.

A scenario being winnable in principle still doesn't mean that an arbitrary player will be able to at the first try or that they will have sufficient gold/recalls to ever win in the current play through.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

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octalot
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Re: my Outpost hurts Hard

Post by octalot » August 14th, 2019, 7:54 pm

Soliton wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm
If the point is that tomato surprises should be avoided then I'm sure everyone agrees.
I'd put an exception to that: if the campaign has a difficulty level that tells the player that it's only for replaying the campaign, then I'd be happy for surprises that need foreknowledge. At lower difficulty levels the same surprise could trigger, but with a lesser number of enemies so that a player who's prepared for general eventualities can handle it.

Soliton
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Re: my Outpost hurts Hard

Post by Soliton » August 14th, 2019, 8:16 pm

Sure, every rule has exceptions. If you really think a tomato surprise must be used for whatever reason you need to consider pros and cons and decide what you value more. It seems fairly unlikely to me that there ever is a good reason for a surprise like the Draug appearance that josteph mentioned for example.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

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josteph
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Re: my Outpost hurts Hard

Post by josteph » August 15th, 2019, 7:10 pm

Soliton wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm
How can a scenario be winnable at the 5th attempt but not the first? Of course every scenario must be winnable at the first attempt (given you have sufficient gold/recalls for higher difficulties) or it's not winnable at the 5th attempt either. If the point is that tomato surprises should be avoided then I'm sure everyone agrees.

A scenario being winnable in principle still doesn't mean that an arbitrary player will be able to at the first try or that they will have sufficient gold/recalls to ever win in the current play through.
Of course. "Being winnable" doesn't mean a player should be able to win regardless of carryover and recall list. It means that if the player has enough carryover/recalls and chooses a good strategy based on the information available to them at that point, they would win consistently. (That is, if they played the scenario 100 times from the same reasonable starting point, they'd win most of the times.) The player does need to have enough resources, to choose a good strategy, and to execute it well.

It's fine to have surprises, foreshadowed or not, so long as the player can win even if they hadn't known the surprise was coming up.

At least, that's just what I assume when a campaign doesn't state otherwise.

---

Another example: consider a scenario that has an object that advances the unit that takes it by one level. Someone who plays that scenario for the first time might have to take that item with whatever unit is nearest. Someone who plays that scenario for the second time might prepare a 0XP lvl2 unit to take the item with (that's the best option, unless the player has access to lvl3 units that can advance, in which case a 0XP lvl3 unit would be better). This sort of thing could affect the campaign's difficulty. If the campaign is difficulty "normal" to someone who knows that item will be there and difficulty "challenging" to someone who doesn't, then how should the campaign be listed, "normal" or "challenging"?

The situation is similar when there are forks (such as after The Bay of Pearls, or the eggs in Gryphon Mountain, both in HttT).

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octalot
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Re: my Outpost hurts Hard

Post by octalot » September 2nd, 2019, 6:11 am

I think the general rule should be that scenarios are winnable without foreknowledge, but Eastern Invasion should have a warning at the start that the general rule doesn't apply - it's full of tomato surprises. There have been case-by-case changes to solve specific instances, but...
spoiler-laden rant about Eastern Invasion:

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