Please, re-think Orcs. :(

[Beholder]

Oi, this will be long, so take a seat, sip your coffee and enjoy the read. Ready? Let's start!

Orcs doesn't excel at anything and are lacking on several areas. They are almost all chaotic (except Nagas), have no healing, no leadership, no magic, no skirmish, no ambush, no charge, no steadfast and no fliers. Well, at least we got poison...

nevermind.

On big maps it's scout (wolf rider) doesn't shine since he doesn't fly or even is that fast. On short maps his heroes can't help with healing or leadership or just shooting 3 fireballs with 70% chance to hit on the enemy face.

I am not saying other races doesn't have problems. Loyalists scouts are worse then orcs, and Knalgans doesn't have healing and leadership too, however, both races have other good things coming to then. Orcs have anything special and orky going.


Orcs have one way to fight, right to the enemy face with superior numbers. There is no subtle neither I say it should have, but this should at least be effective, and it isn't. A single elusive-foot like a Footpad can block a whole ork army on its track, and the player know it. They just pray the RNG will smile to then and move on. This shouldn't be.

But lack of option isn't the biggest orc problem, economy is.

Orc units are cheap with a trade-off of then being, well... kinda weak overall. Okay, they suck! But they are cheap right? You got what you pay... Orc players will end up building more units because of this, however...

With more, units, a higher upkeep and on the long run, they will have less gold. Having 2 spearmen and 1 mage is better then having 4 grunts and I dare to say, it's more effective.

Having a unit having high durability AND being cheap isn't a good deal. Sure they last a bit more, but a bunch of grunts is worth [censored] when they cannot seen to hit that damn thief.

If orcs are to be the limited race they are, at least make they good what they do. Durability isn't good when you aren't actually powerful. Saving a near dead Mage is worth, saving a Grunt is just something I do to not give 8 XP to the enemy. To make things worse, they take ages to heal on a village.

I'd happily trade these fat units which take ages to heal on my villages for something more fragile, but far more menacing. So here is my proposal...

Trade a good deal of this HP for damage. I will let the ratio to you but If the only thing I do is swing a big sword, I'd least like to be good doing it, this way I can actually punch my enemies to death.

My 12 cents.

[Herduk]

I'd happily trade these fat units which take ages to heal on my villages for something more fragile, but far more menacing.

In this case, don't use orcs but use elves.
Orcs are big, ugly and always angry. They can take more damage and do an high damage (12-2 in night isn't little damage) while they spawn the enemy.

I usually find well while using orcs, but for sure you don't play them as i play dwarves or loyalist!

[PingPangQui]

Herduk is right. If you don't like to play with Orcs, than choose another faction next time. There are lots of players who preferably like to play Orcs and don't think that they are underpowerd.

[zookeeper]

Orcs have one way to fight, right to the enemy face with superior numbers.

Good. Variety is nice.

There is no subtle neither I say it should have, but this should at least be effective, and it isn't.

Oh, I'd say it is effective. Why do you think it isn't?

A single elusive-foot like a Footpad can block a whole ork army on its track, and the player know it. They just pray the RNG will smile to then and move on. This shouldn't be.

How does a single footpad block a whole army? That doesn't really make sense, unless it has a ZoC with a radius of 10. Just ignore the footpad and go hit something you're more unlikely to miss. It's not like your opponent will likely put his footpad somewhere where you are likely to hit it, so his moves are more predictable.

But lack of option isn't the biggest orc problem, economy is.

Orc units are cheap with a trade-off of then being, well... kinda weak overall. Okay, they suck! But they are cheap right? You got what you pay... Orc players will end up building more units because of this, however...

Kinda weak? Grunts are one of my favourite melee units because they have such a great damage-to-cost ratio. Sure, due to the 2 strikes the amount of damage they tend to deal on any given attack varies more than with units with 3 or 4 strikes.

With more, units, a higher upkeep and on the long run, they will have less gold. Having 2 spearmen and 1 mage is better then having 4 grunts and I dare to say, it's more effective.

I'd actually rather have the 4 grunts. Depends on the situation of course, but assuming conditions equally favourable to both sides.

Having a unit having high durability AND being cheap isn't a good deal. Sure they last a bit more, but a bunch of grunts is worth s*** when they cannot seen to hit that damn thief.

Well then you shouldn't try to hit that damn thief but go for something else instead and/or use units with a higher number of swings (where are your archers and assassins?). What's the problem? Your basically saying that when you have bad luck, your units are worthless. But that's obvious. That thief is equally useless to your opponent if he cannot seem to be able to dodge your blows.

If your point is that northerners are boring to play, then fine, can't really argue with that as it's a matter of taste. But if you want to argue that they're underpowered then I'm sure someone can be arranged to play against you as northerners so you can present some first-hand evidence?

[Sapient]

A single elusive-foot like a Footpad can block a whole ork [sic] army on its track, and the player know it.

Then why not poison the footpad if you don't want to risk the grunts missing? I think you either do not know how to play Northerners well or you are playing on unofficial maps/settings that are unbalanced against Northerners.

Let's take a look at the assassin, whose ranged poison may be thought of as a crude and slow-acting sort of magic. The only units that can get 70% defense and a high ranged attack are the elvish archer and the dwarven thunderer. So these are very risky units to poison, because your assassin may suffer dearly. However, since mountains and forests should be carefully spaced around the map, this is usually not a problem.

[Nebiros]

Sounds to me like you're not using your trolls effectively. You don't even mention in the faction overview that Northerners have the game's cheapest regenerator, which is also resistant to the two most common damage types in the game (blade and pierce). Trolls are essential (IMO) to effective play as Northerners.

Use your numbers and your trolls to ZoC and interfere with enemy movement. Stalling benefits you because your trolls regenerate and the enemy takes poison damage. If you've already used your cheap units to grab more than your fair share of villages, then stalling benefits you even more.

They also have the most combat effective level 0 unit (although I admit I don't make much use of them myself) - which costs only 8 gold and no upkeep.

They also have a ranged fire damage dealer for only 14 gold - far less than the cost of a mage or burner and even cheaper than an adept. Heavy infantry, guardsmen, skeletons, trolls and woses hate this little guy. Oh yeah, and he can also pierce, so cavalrymen, horsemen, elvish scouts and drakes hate him too. Fortunately you have some cheap beefy units to block for him, like trolls and grunts (both cheaper than a spearman or elvish fighter, never mind dwarves or drakes).

Effective use of the assassin deserves a post of its own, practically. But it's important, except against undead (where you should make more orcish archers instead).

There's a lot more to northerners than just the grunt (although the grunt is no joke either, but that's already been covered upthread). With trolls, poison and plenty of fresh units to rotate into the fray, northerners are more of an endurance race than some others - if you're trying to play them like undead you're doing it wrong.

[Beholder]

Orcs have one way to fight, right to the enemy face with superior numbers.

Good. Variety is nice.

There is no subtle neither I say it should have, but this should at least be effective, and it isn't.

Oh, I'd say it is effective. Why do you think it isn't?

They aren't effective because they lack a way to take people out of villages. Archers aren't viable.

A single elusive-foot like a Footpad can block a whole ork army on its track, and the player know it. They just pray the RNG will smile to then and move on. This shouldn't be.

How does a single footpad block a whole army? That doesn't really make sense, unless it has a ZoC with a radius of 10. Just ignore the footpad and go hit something you're more unlikely to miss. It's not like your opponent will likely put his footpad somewhere where you are likely to hit it, so his moves are more predictable.

There are maps with small passages in which the alternative is a huge turn around, long enough to anyone call reinforcements or just lost the night time. But fell free to mock my points.

But lack of option isn't the biggest orc problem, economy is.

Orc units are cheap with a trade-off of then being, well... kinda weak overall. Okay, they suck! But they are cheap right? You got what you pay... Orc players will end up building more units because of this, however...

Kinda weak? Grunts are one of my favourite melee units because they have such a great damage-to-cost ratio. Sure, due to the 2 strikes the amount of damage they tend to deal on any given attack varies more than with units with 3 or 4 strikes.

If you like the grunts, I fear to know what melee you dislike. A single kind of attack, low damage and the variety of damage can swing up or down.

With more, units, a higher upkeep and on the long run, they will have less gold. Having 2 spearmen and 1 mage is better then having 4 grunts and I dare to say, it's more effective.

I'd actually rather have the 4 grunts. Depends on the situation of course, but assuming conditions equally favourable to both sides.

Now you are just stretching it for the sake of it. Your passion for the grunt is that of a mother for its [censored] son. No serious game will have a 4 grunt army. Focus on "serious".

Having a unit having high durability AND being cheap isn't a good deal. Sure they last a bit more, but a bunch of grunts is worth s*** when they cannot seen to hit that damn thief.

Well then you shouldn't try to hit that damn thief but go for something else instead and/or use units with a higher number of swings (where are your archers and assassins?). What's the problem? Your basically saying that when you have bad luck, your units are worthless. But that's obvious. That thief is equally useless to your opponent if he cannot seem to be able to dodge your blows.

If your point is that northerners are boring to play, then fine, can't really argue with that as it's a matter of taste. But if you want to argue that they're underpowered then I'm sure someone can be arranged to play against you as northerners so you can present some first-hand evidence?

If I won, there will be changes? If not, sorry, not wasting my time.

[Sapient]

if you want to argue that they're underpowered then I'm sure someone can be arranged to play against you as northerners so you can present some first-hand evidence?

If I won, there will be changes? If not, sorry, not wasting my time.

If you win consistently against the pros with this setup, then yes. That's how balancing is done: by testing the balance on the battlefield.

Also, as a side note: You are posting arguments about the balance in a video game to an online forum, so what is the point of accuse us of trying to waste your time? If playing MP is a waste of your time then you are already wasting it, so that's a bogus excuse.

[Blarumyrran]

good ole HG, back with his good ole northerners lacking BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Winning with Northerners is based on attrition. Contrary to the stereotype, they are the most subtle and least straightforward of the Default factions.

[nebula955]

a simple way is just massive wounding of units by doing maximum damage (even if to not kill units) so that they can be easily killed by the later waves of orcs by dawn

[Doc Paterson]

Welcome back, Higher Game!

[eyu100]

Welcome back, Higher Game!

[Herduk]

Good. Variety is nice.

Oh, I'd say it is effective. Why do you think it isn't?

They aren't effective because they lack a way to take people out of villages. Archers aren't viable.
How does a single footpad block a whole army? That doesn't really make sense, unless it has a ZoC with a radius of 10. Just ignore the footpad and go hit something you're more unlikely to miss. It's not like your opponent will likely put his footpad somewhere where you are likely to hit it, so his moves are more predictable.

There are maps with small passages in which the alternative is a huge turn around, long enough to anyone call reinforcements or just lost the night time. But fell free to mock my points.
Kinda weak? Grunts are one of my favourite melee units because they have such a great damage-to-cost ratio. Sure, due to the 2 strikes the amount of damage they tend to deal on any given attack varies more than with units with 3 or 4 strikes.

If you like the grunts, I fear to know what melee you dislike. A single kind of attack, low damage and the variety of damage can swing up or down.
I'd actually rather have the 4 grunts. Depends on the situation of course, but assuming conditions equally favourable to both sides.

Now you are just stretching it for the sake of it. Your passion for the grunt is that of a mother for its [censored] son. No serious game will have a 4 grunt army. Focus on "serious".
Well then you shouldn't try to hit that damn thief but go for something else instead and/or use units with a higher number of swings (where are your archers and assassins?). What's the problem? Your basically saying that when you have bad luck, your units are worthless. But that's obvious. That thief is equally useless to your opponent if he cannot seem to be able to dodge your blows.

If your point is that northerners are boring to play, then fine, can't really argue with that as it's a matter of taste. But if you want to argue that they're underpowered then I'm sure someone can be arranged to play against you as northerners so you can present some first-hand evidence?

If I won, there will be changes? If not, sorry, not wasting my time.

Take a look here
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15887

[Arcador]

When I started to play with the North dudes I had the same problem. As one player stated above - orcs, unlike all other games are not straight forward attack faction.
I mean you can attack but if the enemy got better positions - you are pretty much wasting your units (unless you are the lucky type). Orcs lack of diversity by single force.
Grunts hit hard but take hard.
Trolls hit moderate but take less.
Archers are good but die most easily.
Assasins are usefull but die even more easy than archers.
Wolfs are fast but are not strong as other scouts
and so on...

All other races units have some minor advantage over the orc...at least is what it appears on first sight. This leads to - new player with orcs is more weak than weak players with rebels for example.

Orc cannot mass a unit. Orc units do not got diversity for example as elf fighter, thunder dwarf, and so on thus they get countered very easily. Their efficiency depends higly on unit combination EVEN when the enemy masses one type of unit.

Orc level 2 units often gain the skill they need to compensate their dissadvantage thus in my oppinion they get very efficient. (orc got 3rd attack, archer got hp and descen melee, troll get MORE HP, assasin get melee, wolf get slow/fire).