Siege of Elensefar (aka MYOB Skeletons!) Help is required!

[AThousandYoung]

Post a starting save for that scenario with an okay recall list and I'll try it.
I'm not willing to play up to that scenario just to prove a point.

Here you go! It's 1.4.7. You have 232 Gold and a Recall list of level 2's that emphasises Healing, Leadership and Anti-Undead.

[csarmi]

I'll try but I dont have 1.4 version and it wont be easy to DL/install it here

This is where I got so far. I'll continue later if needed.

I played a bit risky, not so well and I also used up like 200+g for recruits and recall. If I had less resources, I think I'd have made my stand at the forest while stealing villages.

The replay is broken already on turn2. But I think its should be quite obvious what I was doing. I didnt save every turn anyway.

[AThousandYoung]

Wow. You killed most of the Orcs by Turn 7 and apparently didn't lose many important units! How did you do it?

I see you Recalled at least 8 units. That's 160 Gold. You also recruited a Shaman and a Merman. What sort of units did you recruit which didn't make it? Merman Warriors? Elvish Fighters?

[csarmi]

Turn1: I recalled the 4 mermen and the two mages. Moved the captain west.
Turn2: I recalled the knight, 2 druids, the footpad guy and recruited 2 shamans as fodders. Konrad headed for the NW village.
Turn3: I moved my units forward. The mermen reached the water. The orcs didnt attack.
Turn4: I took my positions in the water and next to the water making sure that my knight was in reach of the NE village, all my troops backed up with a healer and no justified attack on any of my troops. In short, only 2 mermen were in reach and any attack would be from 20% (or the 40% of the bridge) vs 60/ defense. Unless very unlucky, i wouldnt lose any troops. I was slightly lucky even.
Turn5: On my retaliation attack I killed a crossbow carefully, levelling up a merman fighter just in time. I stole the village on the left island, took the NE village with knight, moved my footpad in range of 18,30, just in case. I made sure the AI had no real chance to kill on any of my troops lined up in the water.
Turn6: My knight moved into the village from the east and the merman - stealing the village on last turn - now swam forward to go village-grabbing on the north. The thieves spawned and I made sure they were safe. On the south you can see what I've done: I was forced to sacrifice a shaman. I'm attaching the save on the end of turn6 and on the start of turn7.

[AThousandYoung]

Thanks!

[Soliton]

I've edited your save to 150 gold so I don't accidentally use more (thought I'd recruit somewhere in the middle again but didn't have to). Here's a replay with it. There are some lucky moments when a stupid shaman doesn't slow and I lost a loyal Thief and Merman but otherwise it should be pretty solid.

[AThousandYoung]

Sol, I see a few things. I see you heavily emphasized the Recall of Loyal units. I see that you sent an Outlaw across the moat to the island on the left. Some other replay I saw used an Elven Scout or Rider to do the same thing. Second, I note that the Orc doesn't seem to recruit that heavily. It might be my imagination, but I suspect that the Orc mirrors the player's recruiting. I've suspected that the AI does this for a while; if the player recruits less, the AI will too. I don't know if it's true though. I see you chose the ford rather than the reinforcements, and yet you still got the Thieves...though with the Reinforcements option I think you get one more. I also notice that you attacked the first Orc at the beginning of night, when it's strongest.

I also see that your luck sucked in the beginning, and that you used the Shaman as what I call "sacrificial beef" - in other words, a meat shield that is meant to die. I see you levelled the Mage to Red Mage instead of White, which is surprising considering that Orcs lack Humans' resistance to Arcane. I see your Thieves wandering aimlessly at the bottom left early on. I imagine that's so the AI will be confused and distracted and separate his forces and/or to defend against enemy village raiders.

The loss of that Netcaster was painful. Losing a Loyal Merman Warrior or Thief is one thing...I have a bunch of those and I find I rarely need more than two of any type of unit...but the only Loyal Javelineer, after he makes it to Level 2...that hurts.

I also see you ended with over 400 Gold on Turn 27. I should go back and figure out where you were by certain Turns as a benchmark.

Amazing job!

[Soliton]

I see you heavily emphasized the Recall of Loyal units.

That's pretty much what you always want to do IMO, especially when you're low on gold.

I see that you sent an Outlaw across the moat to the island on the left.

I've actually never done that before but it worked very well. I think there was not much chance of him dying anytime.

Second, I note that the Orc doesn't seem to recruit that heavily. It might be my imagination, but I suspect that the Orc mirrors the player's recruiting. I've suspected that the AI does this for a while; if the player recruits less, the AI will too. I don't know if it's true though.

Well, look at the Orc side in the replay. He recruits as soon as he has enough gold. Note that he only recruits level 2 units though. (which is good because the only other unit he can recruit is Assassins and the player would be happy about those..)
I did not kill the Orcs any quickly so they might have suffered more upkeep than in other replays.

I see you levelled the Mage to Red Mage instead of White, which is surprising considering that Orcs lack Humans' resistance to Arcane.

Oh, I thought you'd want your only loyal Mage to go to level 4. That's what I always do anyway. Note that the Red Mage line is also neutral which makes them better fighters at night.

I see your Thieves wandering aimlessly at the bottom left. I imagine that's so the AI will be confused and distracted and separate his forces.

Yeah, they were waiting for their chance... which seemed to keep many of the Orcs on the western island.

[Jozrael]

I usually make my only loyal mage a silver mage <.<

[AThousandYoung]

Sol, why did you recruit Shamans instead of Fighters?

You moved to the left on Turn 4, then engaged the front orc on Turn 5. You exposed Konrad to 6 attacks for 12 each. With his 40% Defense, there's a dangerously high chance that he might be killed! Did you reload your turns or were you just lucky?

You entered the central island city on Turn 8.

[csarmi]

Shamans are very good fodder. They are elusive in forest (70% defense) and enough hp to survive some attacks. At night you need three grunt hits to kill them and crossbows are usually slowed on first retaliation. Fighters need one more hit to die, but they don't have heal or slow. Plus that 70%+lower hp is a good way to lure AI, who's trying to go for the kill and more often than not, fails completely. Even when he succeeds, you can get a nice counter and THEN slow is even more important.

Shamans work well vs undead too.

So I usually prefer them to fighters as a fodder, but the latter has its uses, for sure. It's probably only a matter of preference.

Note that on worse ground (40%-50%-60%) defense they are clearly subpar on defense and survivability, but they still have that ever-helpful slow.

They're cheap too.

To summarize it: they're only 1 gold more expensive (which wont matter much since they cost the same upkeep and that 4-5 gold max will translate to much less as carryover gold), but they have great strategical uses (slow, heal, 70% in forest, appealing target).

I think turn4 was a mistake: 4/6 kills Konrad and that's a very reasonable chance to kill for the AI to try it. Turn5 was risky too. Note that with just one more fodder (shaman/fighter) placed where Konrad was the risk would be zero and probably the same result.

The netcaster was an unnecessary risk, and proved to be a disaster (should have played out much better with normal luck, but [censored] happens).

Overall, I think that replay shows a lot how you're supposed to play vs the AI. And it's not near optimal even, I figure Soliton didn't take much time playing this.

Note the plan of slipping the outlaw through, the well-timed retreats and the splitting of forces that ensures that the AI can be baited and defeated soundly on all fronts.

I think the red mage line supposed to levelup to silver mages almost exclusively (a loyal great mage is a good idea too). Maximum two great mages total, but I cant see you needing more than 1 in any of the maps.

I also advise you to replay it yourself, should be a good experience to learn.

[AThousandYoung]

I finally beat the accursed level. I saveloaded a zillion times, but I don't mind doing that. I find this game too frustrating without save loading. I also learned a lot. It seems careful analysis of where each enemy can move next turn is important, as is having a lot of firepower so you can kill two or three baddies who you got separated from the pack. Thanks a ton!

[csarmi]

Dont save/load. It's a trap. Trust me. Been there.
You're better off cheating (edit hp) or just recruiting 3-4 more fighters for every scenario and make sure they are the best targets whenever you finish a turn so you lose THEM.

[Jozrael]

Or just playing on a lower difficulty level. No shame in playing a lower level without saveloading. I find it more rewarding than playing the hardest and having to save/load (looking at YOU, northern rebirth several levels in . That's where it becomes too taxing for me xD).

[AThousandYoung]

Or just playing on a lower difficulty level. No shame in playing a lower level without saveloading. I find it more rewarding than playing the hardest and having to save/load (looking at YOU, northern rebirth several levels in . That's where it becomes too taxing for me xD).

I want lots of high level troops. I don't play for a challenge really. I find Wesnoth extraordinarily frustrating because of the time limit and the permanent death, so I save/load when I feel like it. I want to explore and level up. I don't care if I save/load.

I played some of the other campaigns on medium, but I wanted to try hard.