Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyalist)

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Xandria
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Joined: April 23rd, 2006, 5:10 pm
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Post by Xandria »

Don't forget: you get quite the punch in that little saurian frame: one of two is strong, and that makes 4 pokes for six damage each. Don't forget that the olittle bugger is bound to injure any hippie who wishes for an iguana on a stick. Most foes, whether ranged or melee, are likely to get hit once or twice, so, with the low elven HP, they'll make tasty targets after they dispatch the poor skirm, but before they have achance to put those 8 exp to good use. Just don't stand next to huggable trees with the little skirm.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

Yogin
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Joined: November 18th, 2005, 7:49 pm

Post by Yogin »

Cackfiend wrote:
Yogin wrote:(2) poor defense in hills/grass: force it onto these - how? make them assault you;
yes this is always a good idea, and another obvious one. of course u want to try and lure an elf off of a forest tile.
It may seem obvious, but it often isn't implemented very well. As Noy said in some thread, it is often about denying the archers a forest hex rather than forcing them off the forest hex. Again, there's a theme of in what location you choose to engage other units. If elvish archers in forest are giving you trouble, then something's wrong. You shouldn't need to engage troops of elvish archers in forest on balanced maps.
Yogin wrote:(3) it's neutral; attack during your time of day.[/list]
thanks captain obvious :)
The point is, it's an exercise in a methodological technique of how to come up with tactics. Yes, some are obvious. Others less so.
Yogin wrote:(1) good ranged pierce damage: attack with melee, defend with range: when presenting a target to the elves, present a burner, not a clasher;
yes this is a good idea. ...
this is a hard thing to do though...
A very good example of this is holding a village surrounded by grassland which happens quite often. Even with dextrous archers, it's worth it for the retaliation damage if you can counterattack on your turn. Another example is simply keeping burners on the front line and clashers behind them.
Yogin wrote:(2) pierce: use saurians;
saurians are useless vs the pierce aspect of an elven archer unless theyre dextrous. dextrous archers will still do 5 dmg a hit... same as non-dextrous. ive had good success with mass saurian skirms vs elves but it can be really unstable (1 saurian can hold off 4 elves or die to a single one)
Actually, you have to compare saurians vs. the other drakes, not saurians vs. other faction units. Saurians take less damage than drakes under all conditions except when compared to a clasher facing a non-dextrous archer.

Instability is part of the game. Look at unit traits, and use them to your advantage. Prepare for what happens if luck doesn't go your way.
Yogin wrote:(3) mobility: not really much of an issue - drakes have greater mobility - steal villages with gliders and saurians, since they both have even better mobility than archers. force the archers to go through hills/mountains to slow them down, or even better, to stop in grass;
WRONG

saurians are not faster than elvish archers. they both move 6 and can have the quick trait to get 7. archers move through forest at 1 MP each and saurians move through forest at 2 MP each (though they do move through hills at 1 MP)
If you really believe this, you must be playing on unbalanced maps. Saurians have better movement through hills/swamps/sand/mountains. Archers have better movement through forest. On all balanced maps, you have more of the former than the latter.
you should know my opinion about gliders... they suck. even if you do manage to get behind a good player in a 1v1 a glider isnt going to do much on most maps. theres exceptions to this of course, but elvish archers would just destroy gliders.

i dont think id ever make a glider vs an elf player
In mid and late game conditions on most maps, stealing a village for 1 full turn results in a 6gc swing. Stealing a village for 3 turns, or stealing 3 villages for 1 full turn each results in a 18gc swing. I'd say that's a very nice compensation for a 16gc glider. Keep in mind, the opponent also has to spend forces to try and retake the lost villages, and with a glider's range, you should be able to avoid any type of trapping that will result in death. Furthermore, a glider as a 3-3 marksman is really a fantastic finisher because he often has the range to get around to other units that he normally can't get to. He may be able to swing back and forth from village stealing/threatening to the front line for a quick kill. He may be 2-3 at night, but he's also 4-3 at day.
Yogin wrote:(4) forest: (a)attack with magical: augur @ night, gliders as finisher
this is a horrible idea. a glider at night does a whopping 2 dmg a hit. an augur at night would do 6-3 at 70% to an elven archer and the archer would be returning 5-4 at 60% or 40%. this means you would need 2-3 augurs and maybe a glider to finish 1 archer... and you'd take massive retaliation dmg.
A) Maybe I was unclear. I meant if you can't keep the elves off forest, and you must engage an archer in 70% defense, then a saurian augur is a good way to go.
B)Against a non-resilient archer, you have a 42% chance of killing off an archer with 2 augurs @ night. You have an additional 32% chance of reducing it to 2-6hp. You will most likely take 5-10 damage per image, and have less than an 18% chance of sustaining 15+ damage.

C) Treat saurians like mages: they die when subject to attacks on open ground, die when subject to multiple attacks in defensive positions. When you must assault an elvish archer in a forest, there is, more often than not, some terrain nearby that a saurian skirmisher can use. And of course it would be idiotic to attack an archer from 40 def unless you mean to finish it, and have a way to prevent retal.

=============================

And the whole point of the first post was to teach a methodology to find out how to deal with other units. Thus, the methodology will reveal both obvious and not-so-obvious points. Having problems with elvish archers? See the above. Having problems with mass spearman? Try the methodology, and see what you come up with.

The factions are balanced so that there are counters. Some are not-so-obvious, some are very obvious. This is one way to identify both categories of possible counters.

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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend »

Yogin wrote: Actually, you have to compare saurians vs. the other drakes, not saurians vs. other faction units. Saurians take less damage than drakes under all conditions except when compared to a clasher facing a non-dextrous archer.

this is incorrect.


saurians take 5 dmg from dextrous and non dextrous elven archers
clasher, fighter, burner, and glider all take 5 dmg from non dextrous archers
fighter burner and glider take 7 dmg from dextrous archers (ouch)
clashers take 6 dmg from dextrous archers
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

Yogin
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Joined: November 18th, 2005, 7:49 pm

Post by Yogin »

Cackfiend wrote:
Yogin wrote: Actually, you have to compare saurians vs. the other drakes, not saurians vs. other faction units. Saurians take less damage than drakes under all conditions except when compared to a clasher facing a non-dextrous archer.

this is incorrect.


saurians take 5 dmg from dextrous and non dextrous elven archers
clasher, fighter, burner, and glider all take 5 dmg from non dextrous archers
fighter burner and glider take 7 dmg from dextrous archers (ouch)
clashers take 6 dmg from dextrous archers
Right. 40% of elvish archers are dextrous, so it helps, but not as much as I thought.

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