You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

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Velensk
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Velensk » July 31st, 2009, 8:19 pm

That isn't a bad way to do things (though potentially risky). I was just answering why most people don't use them on offense. On defence you're much more likely to get juicy target with a 98ish% chance to kill it.
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Ryorin
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Ryorin » July 31st, 2009, 8:33 pm

Yeah it's risky, but using a poacher/thunderer combo, and 'zerking usually leads to a slightly injured 'zerk and a slightly dead enemy.

Though I only use this on a "Hard" target. Or a leader if he is outside the castle.
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Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » August 2nd, 2009, 1:13 am

Simple question: Is there any for Drakes having 6 unit types, while other factions have 7 or 8?

Is it a balance issue (ie. that extra unit type making Drakes OP)? Is it a lack of resources (sprites, animation, etc)? Or is it one of those "you try it, shows the results and then we'll think about it" kinda thing?

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Sorrow
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Sorrow » August 2nd, 2009, 2:53 am

Why do you think number of units a faction can recruit is linked to their strength? I can edit the game to make knalgans unable to build anything but a yeti. 1 unit and i guarantee they will beat down most anything.
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Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » August 2nd, 2009, 3:43 am

I only asked questions. I didnt state anything.

I'm just curious about the reasons. That's all.

IMO, as far as drake type units go, they're ok. But saurians could perhaps use a ranged (non-mage) unit type. But that is just my opinion. I'm not experienced enough to know about how balance works in Wesnoth. So I'm asking instead.

Scipion121212
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Scipion121212 » August 2nd, 2009, 11:19 am

Yoyobuae wrote:I only asked questions. I didnt state anything.

I'm just curious about the reasons. That's all.

IMO, as far as drake type units go, they're ok. But saurians could perhaps use a ranged (non-mage) unit type. But that is just my opinion. I'm not experienced enough to know about how balance works in Wesnoth. So I'm asking instead.
Problem is, that the game is already balanced on at least 99% and adding another unit to drakes would throw balance out of window (unless the unit would be useless, but that is not what you are aiming for :D ). It could be considered too much of a work to add new units and try to balance it again when we already have nearly perfectly balanced game.

Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » August 2nd, 2009, 2:58 pm

Then I ask: Why was it not done in the first place?

I don't have any hopes of a unit actually being added (even a +1 HP change would be near impossible at this point). I'm just curious about what reasons were behind the decision that led to the current balance.

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Turuk
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Turuk » August 2nd, 2009, 5:00 pm

Yoyobuae wrote:Then I ask: Why was it not done in the first place?
Because making every faction have an equal number of units can often mean forcing units into place that might not fit solely to meet a numbers quota. It's similar to the reason of why not every unit line goes to level 3. It adds a bit of variety and uniqueness to the factions.
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Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » August 2nd, 2009, 9:02 pm

I guess you're right Turuk. Thanks for the answer.

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Froobloops
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Froobloops » August 8th, 2009, 5:06 pm

This file I uploaded is my evidence of how well the game is balanced. It is Drakes vs Knalgans.
Attachments
2p_-_Jungle_Struggle_replay.gz
This is a matchup against 2 human players with about the same experience playing the game (not pro's by any means), they are on the same computer - but they didn't look at eachother's move's so it is still legit.
(13.51 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
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csarmi
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by csarmi » August 13th, 2009, 11:20 pm

I don't have a clue what your point is. This replay features a small, unbalanced map, a very crappy (and somewhat unlucky) drake player and a - somewhat better - dwarf player (with som ridiculous moves, but overall okay). What does it have to do with game balance?

I take it back. Now dwarves started to play horrible too...

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Froobloops
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Froobloops » August 15th, 2009, 3:36 pm

csarmi wrote:I don't have a clue what your point is.
You're right I shouldn't have used that map as an example, since I think it was an add-on. I never said the players were good, but the damage and defense capabilities from fight to fight balance out pretty well, is my point.
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csarmi
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by csarmi » August 18th, 2009, 4:25 am

Oh I see. Yes, most likely... But this game still shows nothing, the best case it's an example of 'how to lose our winning advantage' :) Now THAT happens several times.

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Faello
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Faello » August 18th, 2009, 1:21 pm

No, game is not balanced to the 99%. It's a false statement.

I think that drakes are a bit overpowered right now. I'm talking about saurian augurs mainly.

This is a 16gp unit that is fast, has good defence values, has pierce resistance and heals other units to. Saurian augurs don't have much hp's, but it's not that important because, as a support and battle caster, it's not meant to face melee combat.

Still they have 2x melee blunt weapon attack and they need a small amount of xp to level up (15xp!). They have 3x magic attack (so 2x attack trauma does not affect them because you can usually count on 2/3 hits) too which is quite decent during the night which becomes powerful when drakes get the Drake Flare.

They're also chaotic, which gives drakes tactical possibilities other factions can only dream about.

Basically, prolonging a combat to the opponent powerphase is usually a bad idea, but what can drake player do, is to attack with full drake force during the day and keep the conquered terrain with the help of the skirmisher and augurs to stop (already weakened opponent) from getting it back, repeating this tactic until he will surrender.

Augurs are probably the most often levelling up unit and with a decent level up too that make them a strong battle casters.

With their speed, they often don't need the protection retreating mages or adepts need.

Also, pierce resistance allows player to use them (if agressive style of play is needed) to force the kills on the units with pierce ranged attack like archers if necessary.

So a fast attack unit with magic attack, that can get a leadership bonus and doesn't need as much protection as standard combat casters, allowing to prolong the powerphase effectively, healing & stopping the poison, leveling up fast to the (either) a combat caster with a powerful magic attack OR semi combat caster with healing ability (how often druids level up to the shamans?).

Considering the fact, how powerful and mobile drakes are, I don't see a reason to power up this faction more.

Augurs amplify the fact that drake units, worth more on averange than other faction units, that are very powerful but still the same upkeep value, get a relatively cheap multipurpose unit allowing to utilize incredible variety of tasks for which other factions need at least 2 or more units and it's espescially evident in 2vs2 games I played hundreds or maybe about a thousand right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking through the anger or regret of losing some particular game, I'm not speaking because I've seen 1 bad replay that proves nothing, I'm speaking using my 5 years experience of playing this game and I thought a long time about it.

As much as it is possible to still win against the drakes, I've seen many decent players succumbing because of augurs in the situations they should still be allright while playing against other factions than drakes.

I think that something should be done with the augurs - definitely not taking the magic attack from them because it would be too much, but something making this unit slightly less useful definitely has to be done. I know that some decent players support this statement, but I will allow them to present their own opinion about it if they want to participate in this discussion.

I can say that I'm certain - 100% sure - that something with this unit is not right atm considering it's combination with rest of the drake faction units.

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Caphriel
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Caphriel » August 18th, 2009, 2:13 pm

The thief and poacher take approximately the same amount of experience to level up. It's only 15 if the augur is intelligent. Thieves level up comparably often, and a rogue is arguably more dangerous than either of the augur's level up choices.

Attempting to hold conquered territory at night against a chaotic faction using copious amounts of augurs and skirmishers generally results in failure. The combination of low HP and negative resists to most damage types makes them very fragile for their cost. Most (if not all) trait combinations for an augur can be killed by a single grunt, and cold damage is mostly useless against the Undead. In fact, the only unit undead unit that doesn't resist cold other than the walking corspse has a 49% chance to kill an augur attacking it with magic. But the Drakes usually aren't using augurs against the Undead.

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