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csparrow
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by csparrow » June 7th, 2009, 7:57 pm

lindsay40k wrote:
csparrow wrote:I see what your saying, but the skirmisher is powerfull for its cost and it is a chaotic unit in a lawful faction
Even better! This means that when your line units are at their weakest, your supporting skirmishers are at their strongest, and can either act as a scarecrow to make attackers wary or sneak through their lines to nerf Dark Adepts and the like.

The Fencer, on the other hand, is of limited use when Loyalists are at their weakest.

Balance is a tricky thing that needs a bigger-picture view based on testing, it really can't be figured out with theory alone.
but in a simply stat to stat match up the saurian is clearly better than the fencer and it is cheaper and it is strong at the time of day that all your other guys are weak so it really should cost more
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

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Turuk
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Turuk » June 7th, 2009, 8:01 pm

csparrow wrote:but in a simply stat to stat match up the saurian is clearly better than the fencer and it is cheaper and it is strong at the time of day that all your other guys are weak so it really should cost more
For the last time. You cannot compare a unit in one faction a unit in another faction and make claims on one of the two being unbalanced without looking at the two factions as a whole, taking into account the roles that the unit plays for that faction and the effect it has on various matchups. Stop stating that because it is not a carbon copy of the Saurian Skirmisher, then it must be changed accordingly.

Drop it. Any further comments of yours restating this yet again will only be deleted.
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JW
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by JW » June 7th, 2009, 8:58 pm

csparrow wrote:but in a simply stat to stat match up the saurian is clearly better than the fencer and it is cheaper and it is strong at the time of day that all your other guys are weak so it really should cost more
Here is a simple stat to stat match up:

Saurain defense on flat terrain: 40%
Fencer defense in flat terrain: 60%

If you don't think that's a big deal then I assume you're also putting all your elvish fighters on flat land to fight.

csparrow
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by csparrow » June 8th, 2009, 1:19 am

i just think that 1 gold and a range attack is worth more than 10-20% on some terrain.

:| this fight will never end lets just change topic, so how bout that airline food?
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Eskon » June 8th, 2009, 11:45 pm

20% is huge - would you rather, say, your spearman gets 40% defense to hold a village? Skirmishers are just overall more useful to the drake player than fencers are to the loyalist; that's because skirmishers fill more niches. Aside from doing four strokes of damage and being skirmisher they are also chaotic in a lawful faction, and a pierce resistant unit in a pierce vulnerable faction.

Poachers are better than bowmen at night. Bowmen are better than poachers at day. At dusk or dawn, it's a toss-up. With the quick levelling (intelligent poachers are just inhuman in this regard), the terrain defenses and the fact it's the only reliable pierce damage they have for this cheap, I feel poachers are quite a bit more important to knalgans than bowmen are to loyalists, who oftentimes are better off getting another spearman instead for the same money.

Unit vs unit mathematics has nothing to do with proper Wesmath. Head on, fencers beat skirmishers at day and get beaten at night. Spearman beats grunt at day and loses at night... And so on. Generally, only about a third of the fighting in Wesnoth takes places at dusk or dawn, and even then these units rarely if ever fight each other; generally, they will pick targets that just make more sense attacking. You'll have grunts attacking bowmen and spearmen attacking poachers, if they can, and possibly the other way around.

Wesnoth is complicated like that, yes...

csparrow
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by csparrow » June 9th, 2009, 10:15 am

i think that we can all agree that it matters more how you play then what faction you play as
It is from their foes, not friends that cities learn the lesson of building high walls - Aristophanes

Teuros
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Dwarvish charge

Post by Teuros » June 14th, 2009, 1:39 pm

I was thinking about how to charge with Knalgans. I really couldn't find out how.
I would be happy if somebody could post a replay or tell how to attack using Knalgans.

Thank you!

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JW
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Re: Dwarvish charge

Post by JW » June 14th, 2009, 10:23 pm

Teuros wrote:I was thinking about how to charge with Knalgans. I really couldn't find out how.
I would be happy if somebody could post a replay or tell how to attack using Knalgans.

Thank you!
It varies by opponent. One note I will make is that Knalgans have the only berserking unit.

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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Velensk » June 14th, 2009, 11:37 pm

I wrote a guide on playing knalgans, you may wish to look it up as it does talk about knalgan offence.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Teuros
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Thank you both!

Post by Teuros » June 15th, 2009, 8:10 am

@JW: I really never tought in using berserkers offensivelly... It's a pretty nice idea, thanks!

@Velensk: I apreciated that guide, man! Thank you very much for that!

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Turuk
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Turuk » June 15th, 2009, 10:28 am

Merged the above post into the proper topic. Make sure you hit post reply and not new topic.
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Teuros
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Teuros » June 15th, 2009, 10:16 pm

Turuk wrote:Merged the above post into the proper topic. Make sure you hit post reply and not new topic.
Thank you, Turuk. I'm sorry for that. I had not much time, then I didn't pay enough attention.

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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Ryorin » July 29th, 2009, 5:03 pm

My only question is why wouldn't you use 'zerkers offensively? I've always thought of them as the guys you use to knock off units on good defensive terrain.

I was just wondering based on your previous comment, if you just didn't think of it then that's okay too.
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Velensk
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Velensk » July 31st, 2009, 2:29 pm

Because your enemy will tend to defend with melee units because they are tougher than ranged units. Most of these unit will have a good/great chance to beat your berserker if they are standing on good terrain, even at the ToD which dosn't favor them.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Ryorin » July 31st, 2009, 8:15 pm

Of course, I was addressing someone from the top of the page, I should have quoted him then, but I didn't think to.

I know why you would/wouldn't use them offensively.

Personally I weaken up an enemy unit with ranged attacks if they are on good terrain (Or bad, 19 gold is alot to spend), and then 'zerk them at a bad ToD.

At least that's what I do, most people use them in a very defensive manner I've noticed. Most likely due to the high cost.
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