You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

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multilis
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by multilis » September 16th, 2009, 5:54 pm

"Now how often do you find your archer using a melee attack? I'm trying to recall a time and drawing a blank. Maybe if it was an elvish ambusher."

Actually that can be fairly common. An archer in forest often suprisingly is nearly the match for an ulf, and archer can be used to kill mages if needed, they are not that different from human archers (when they had better melee) in usage, orcs have a brutal time with them if they manage to keep defensive ground. Orcs of course play by swarming rather than matching elves or humans.

Personally I find it funny that once human archers lvl they are as strong as of old.

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Xandria
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Xandria » September 25th, 2009, 2:26 pm

I actually liked the old human archer, with decent melee. 4-2 smells of Poacher to me. 5-2 seems more acceptable. Truth be said, I recruit few of them now.
Oh well, one cannot have all.

Also, what's with the Northerners getting Marksman on the Assassin's attacks? O.o This was hardly needed, no? I thought the general consensus was that Knalgans and Northies get no marksman nor mage units.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

llukiz
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by llukiz » September 28th, 2009, 7:07 pm

now i dont recruit archer at all. I cant find sytuation that archer will be beter from spermen.

Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » September 28th, 2009, 9:59 pm

llukiz wrote:now i dont recruit archer at all. I cant find sytuation that archer will be beter from spermen.
How about to attack a melee only unit without taking retaliation?

Say when attacking a strong Drake Clasher at day time (9-4 spear melee), which would you prefer:
  • Do 9-3 (or 10-3 if strong) with a spearman and take the 9-4 retaliation?
  • Do 7-3 with bowman and take no retaliation?
Of course it's not so simple, but surely a combination of spearman and bowman would do better than 100% spearmans. And mages aren't an option against drakes (although some loyalist players use them anyway :?).

Loyalists have 2 ranged units, and one of them is very expensive. I don't see how can you rule out the other one so easily.
Last edited by Yoyobuae on September 28th, 2009, 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Caphriel
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Caphriel » September 28th, 2009, 10:38 pm

Bowmen are very good against drakes, for pretty much that exact reason. They have a place in most matchups, in moderation.

Mages work against saurians, though.

Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » September 28th, 2009, 11:20 pm

Caphriel wrote:Bowmen are very good against drakes, for pretty much that exact reason. They have a place in most matchups, in moderation.
QFT. There are many units that have their uses in moderation: Ulfs, Scouts, Horsemen, Skirmishers, Bats, etc. All you need is to gain a little advantage at just the right time, which in turn means using the right unit at the right time.
Caphriel wrote:Mages work against saurians, though.
Oh, I love when loys recruits Mages against my Drakes. :D That's one or two less spearman/bowman i need to worry about.

llukiz
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by llukiz » September 29th, 2009, 7:38 am

@Yoyobuae

This comparision is very usefull for you, but you forgot about next round when clasher can atack bowman without sygnificant risk. This is not possible when you atack by spearman

Spearmen against clasher allways win becous spearmen is cheeper. And you can use spearman in defence. Bowman may by usefull only when atack and moreover isnt realy beter during atack than spearman.

(sorry for bad english)

Caphriel
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Caphriel » September 29th, 2009, 1:24 pm

Ideally, you're not leaving a bunch of bowmen next to a clasher; you're using the bowmen to soften it up/kill it, then moving spearmen to the front of your line. If you attack a clasher with a bunch of spearmen, you'll probably kill it, but you'll also have a bunch of heavily wounded spearmen. If you get unlucky attacking a strong clasher, you could actually have quick, non-resilient spearmen killed outright by the counter-attack. It's often better to soften up the clasher with a bowman or two before throwing spearmen at it.

Yoyobuae
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yoyobuae » September 29th, 2009, 4:33 pm

llukiz wrote:@Yoyobuae

This comparision is very usefull for you, but you forgot about next round when clasher can atack bowman without sygnificant risk. This is not possible when you atack by spearman

Spearmen against clasher allways win becous spearmen is cheeper. And you can use spearman in defence. Bowman may by usefull only when atack and moreover isnt realy beter during atack than spearman.

(sorry for bad english)
Except a good Drake player will have saurian augurs/burners (depending on time of day) for the counterattack against the typical spearman attack loyalist players use.

One clasher will need to be attacked by 2 or 3 spearmans for it to die. On the counterattack the drakes could easily kill those weakened spearmans in return, with little retaliation if augurs/burners are used. Who is winning then?

Notice what happens? Speamen attack clasher, which retaliates heavily vs spearmen. On the next round augurs/burners attack instead, taking advantage of spearmen weak ranged attack. Then a new clasher moves in to guard these ranged units, and the cycle starts over with spearmen being forced to attack the blocking clasher.

Wesnoth is not about lots of units of type A vs lots of unit of type B (ie. spearmen vs clashers). It more like american football teams, with separate offense and defense. I can have my defense (clashers) stand in front to take on your attacks, then on my turn have my offense (augurs/burners), which was safely standing a few hexes back, attack your speamen. And as long as I can free some hexes (by killing spearmen) I can again put my defense in front.

Usually, mixed recruits can usually do better than spamming a single unit type. There are exceptions like the grunt rush, but that's a completely different strategy, with more emphasis on speed and village capturing.

Of course, the same can apply for other factions. I just put it from the point of view of Drakes because thats the faction I use. :D

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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Yogibear » September 29th, 2009, 6:33 pm

Yoyobuae wrote: Except a good Drake player will have saurian augurs/burners (depending on time of day) for the counterattack against the typical spearman attack loyalist players use.

One clasher will need to be attacked by 2 or 3 spearmans for it to die. On the counterattack the drakes could easily kill those weakened spearmans in return, with little retaliation if augurs/burners are used. Who is winning then?
These kind of discussions are pretty pointless, as you will *always* find a way to counter a certain unit or even a certain strategy. As has been mentioned elsewhere, that's the point of balanced factions.

If you have some playing experience (and i believe you do), you know, that there is a variety of other factors. For example the fact, that clashers/burners cost 20 gold on average, whereas spearmen/bowmen cost only 14. Which gets a whole new dimension into all those examples (and as we know there are more factors).

Those discussions are only worth it if we talk about concrete situations (replays, *hint, hint*), that show about the units defense and the overall tactical situation. Then and only then we can decide if a bowman is of use or not.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!

llukiz
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by llukiz » September 29th, 2009, 9:56 pm

"These kind of discussions are pretty pointless"

I agree with you. So what make bowman cheeper and lower mele atack? Where can i find discusion about it? Where are the realy reason and argument. Is anybody know a link to discusion leadede to this changes?

Caphriel
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Caphriel » September 30th, 2009, 1:47 am

This was answered already. Nobody knows where the discussion threads are, if there are any on the forum, but the reason was given:
Velensk wrote:There have been bits of discussion over time. The basic gist of it is that the old one was too much of a problem for orcs so they changed it so that it wasn't as good at retaliating in melee, but lowered its cost.
The discussion you are looking for most likely took place on IRC, or another temporary medium, as was most likely not preserved.

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Xandria
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Xandria » September 30th, 2009, 7:38 am

I guess the reason for giving the Northerners' Assassins 'Marksman' was also held on IRC or such - anyone knows why the already unpleasant [censored] was boosted so much?
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

Caphriel
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Caphriel » September 30th, 2009, 1:24 pm

Because the Orcs had too much trouble with dodgy units and units on good terrain? I believe particularly the Knalgans were a problem for them.

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Xandria
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Re: You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!

Post by Xandria » October 1st, 2009, 6:58 am

:-/ Knalgans too have a problem with dodgy units on low terrain. Just, until now they had some chance (35%) that the fighter on the mountain would stay there unpoisoned after an assassin's attack. The bugger is too reliable now.
The fight against human stupidity is endless, but we must never give it up.
- Jan Werich

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