The great Higher Game replay thread!

[Higher Game]

Help me. This is my best orc game ever against dwarves, but much of it came down to luck. I was overall unlucky statistically, but the whole game changed when his gryphon lost terribly to my naga. Of course, his leader was the luckiest I've ever seen in a game, even getting promoted, but that was when the tide had turned at that point.

Here's the thing. Dwarves have generally the toughest units in the game, and aggression is important for beating them before they get a critical mass of dwarves. That means they have the defense advantage AND the unit quality advantage. If he had been more defensive, I would have lost terribly. I can't think of how I could have played better.

And no, mass trolls won't work on dwarves. They just don't have much power against those stubby little tanks. Interestingly, I did use goblins effectively, though.

I think Northerners are perhaps the weakest faction due to no magic, and low hit units. Elusivefoot units are extremely powerful against me, as seen by the thief and rogue. I really need to work out how Northerners work, since they're my weakest faction.

By the way, my name is Rektum for this match. It's too damn hard to make a great name for the server, but this one made it through!

[Higher Game]

And yes, I do know that I would have been dogmeat if he had bothered to make ulfzerkers against my assassins. You don't have to point that out. Just assume that my next opponent will, and what I should do against it. I think trolls might be best here, since they have blade resistance, but I'm not sure how to really take on ulfzerkers well.

[F8 Binds...]

sorry for going off topic, but now i know how you get on without being noticed... You change your name! (of course, if you used higher game, there would be a riot on the 1.2 server)

now back ON topic. (finally he asks for help instead of giving it in strategy guides!)

In this match, you will need a variety of units- these include:

Troll- These can be nasty to knalgans in the terrain they like best. 1/2 depending on amount of mountains/cave is necessary. Regeneration makes up for the 10% differential in terrain defense. (70% for dwarves, 60% for trolls) These also counter any gryphons the opponent will have, and they are nearly half the price.

Orcish Archer- These cut through the dwarves resistance, and attack fighters without taking retaliation damage. Use these on ANY knalgan, just avoid them getting killed by ulfs/fighters/guardsmen. However thunderers can be a pain as they do more ranged damage AND more melee damage, have more hp, and only cost 3 gold more.

Grunt- These are your favored units to finish knalgans, and to hurt them outside of hills / mountains. Save them- They're your big hitters.

Assassin- These are THE UNITS to get dwarves out of mountains/hills. Just poison a dwarf in good terrain from forest, and retreat the next turn. If the dwarf retreats off his mountain keep, advance. If he ignores it, kill the dwarf when he's at 5-15 hp. And if he tries to kill your assassin, he has to expose some units of his, which in turn can be killed by you. Get 1/2 of these depending on how many dwarves like to entrench themselves into mountains/hills.

Wolf rider- This is primarily used as a scout. He suffers to gryphons, so beware. get one.

naga- get one only if there is the need to control areas of water. He does less damage than the gryphon, has less hp, although having higher defense. don't have him confront gryphons alone. he WILL die.

goblins... I've never used them against dwarves... I don't prefer them as most trait combos will make this unit a 1 shot kill from thunderers. Spend 4 more gold and get a grunt that can fight better and actually survive.

If i'm missing any units, It's because I don't use them in Northies v Knalgans.

[Higher Game]

I've given some thought to using goblins to counter ulfzerkers, though. A goblin does 3-3 and a grunt does 7-2 base against them. 2 goblins outstrike a grunt, and considering upkeep, are cheaper to make. Since an ulfzerker fight always ends in a kill, the goblin's low damage isn't a problem. Using 2-3 of them on a single ulfzerker should do the trick easily (an archer attack might be needed for a little help though), while stronger units can be preserved to do heavy flanking damage and taking villages.

Trolls are normally amazing, but I have a philosophical issue with how Knalgans work that pushed me away from the troll swarm. Both grunts and gryphons cost the same upkeep, so in the very long run, the Knalgans will develop a stronger force than the Northerners. I needed damage FAST and I needed hard economic warfare, which was the purpose of those nagas, which didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I needed to slow down his long term development, and had to focus short term to get a foothold.

There's just something about this matchup that makes it annoying. You have the lowest quality units in the game going up against the highest quality (which are more expensive), and the clock is running against you every turn. I can't stall and regroup so easily against Knalgans as I can with other races, or they will become too strong to break through and slowly grind me down.

I did consider archers. I just don't think they would work against thunderers, and their damage is just too low in general, and I needed high damage before the dwarves got too numerous. Ultimately, it was grunts, assassins, and goblin impalers that proved most valuable, since they did adequate damage. Trolls were certainly nice defenders, though, and I was very close to getting a promotion near the end, but the game was about over by then.

My most blunt error was probably the wolf rider (to be fair, he DID choose random in the beginning, so...). Knalgans are so damn predictable and slow, I could have gotten 3 goblins (accounting for upkeep here, and wolf riders usually have long lives except for my reckless leader rush) instead. Gryphons have so much movement, it's probably best to just assume that one is in range and get some more POWER instead of the game's most mediocre scout unit.

Maybe I could have gone troll and naga heavy. I could have used trolls as defense walls, and used nagas to take victory at sea. Taking that water village could have evened the long term odds, and made the game much less frantic.

As for my name, I'm almost certain that I've been impersonated many times, so I use random names, ninja style. There should be some register system for names or something.

[Jetrel]

I've given some thought to using goblins to counter ulfzerkers, though. A goblin does 3-3 and a grunt does 7-2 base against them. 2 goblins outstrike a grunt, and considering upkeep, are cheaper to make. Since an ulfzerker fight always ends in a kill, the goblin's low damage isn't a problem. Using 2-3 of them on a single ulfzerker should do the trick easily (an archer attack might be needed for a little help though), while stronger units can be preserved to do heavy flanking damage and taking villages.

Goblins, especially when placed on decent defensive terrain (and when used at night), are extraordinary at killing ulfzerkers. An even random dist. can cull 1/2 to 2/3 of the ulf's HP, a somewhat lucky dist. can kill the thing outright.

Remember that ulfs get terrible defense, and if you're attacking an ulf on grass from a village, it's effectively like your hitpoints are made equal. It's not a fair trade, and that's exactly what is good about it.

Even attacking an ulf with a goblin in broad daylight isn't a very bad trade.



Also remember that goblins get three attacks instead of two, which can be great for getting a hit in on thieves and footpads - their ranged attack is also dangerous for footpads to have to deal with, since it's not so insignificant against them.

[Yoda Man]

As for my name, I'm almost certain that I've been impersonated many times, so I use random names, ninja style. There should be some register system for names or something.

No, my young padawan learner, what you professed to do is not "ninja style". So, then what is a "ninja style" response to those people, hmm?

A: Killing everyone who's ever downloaded wesnoth.

[Imp]

As for my name, I'm almost certain that I've been impersonated many times, so I use random names, ninja style. There should be some register system for names or something.

No, my young padawan learner, what you professed to do is not "ninja style". So, then what is a "ninja style" response to those people, hmm?

A: Killing everyone who's ever downloaded wesnoth.

Yoda Man knows too much.

[krotop]

Congrats, you played better than your opponent, but... he wasn't that tough indeed. His recruits proves it as he didn't recruit any poachers nor footpads, nor ulfs, and attacked with thieves from swamp (not voluntarily though) and from water (no excuse this time), and many others mistakes.

You were wondering about recruiting a scout as I read a little higher, and yes, you definitely was right to recruit this one.

About replay, MY opinion is that :

Turn 1 :
you recruited too much trolls and nagas, which consequence was that you couldn't attack much on the 1st night. See in the 5th turn, night as already begun and you still haven't given a hit. Trolls are rather meant to be recruited a bit later (like the 2nd or 3rd) in this map to keep the mountains or hills you earned from your night attack and depending on your opponent's faction. And I'd 1 naga on 1st, not 2.

Considering that I agree with recruits, then I don't with positions. Scout should be on 13,2. leaving 12,3 to one of your nagas (can still go in sea village) and leave 14,3 to your poisoner so that you don't have to count on the fact that your troll is fast to grab the 20,5 village. The result would be the same but guaranteed.

Turn 4 :
You send your troll in the back village on 22,3 instead of the poisoner. You should do the other way as troll will take 3 turns to move to front and the poisoner will take 2.

Turn 5 :
You send your nagas to death. Hopefully, the lvl2 thief don't use backstab and you're reached by a dwarf in plain and a thief in swamps. After this turn, you continue to launch nagas to steal villages which seems good to mein this game, as it stuck griffins out of earth. But again, your opponent do not defend the best way. Though, I'm not quite sure that this sea village deserves so much units.

Nothing much to say about the other turns as your strategy well worked against your opponent. But against a better player, I do believe that mountains would have been kept easily and your poisoners stroke down as you didn't have much units on earth.

EDIT : grunts do 9-2 damage points at night to dwarves, 7-2 to guardians
archers do 8-2 damage points at night to dwarves, 7-2 to guardians
Archers definitely aren't useless.

[krotop]

I forgot to tell that to prevent you from ulfs, Jetryl's and F8 Bind's advices were good to follow.

Just be prepared to lose poisoners as much as knalgans will lose their ulfs. It also means that you find a position that ensure you that your opponent won't be able to cover his ulf after he killed your poisoner.

This is just an example, but a common situation would be that :
1. you poison a warrior on a mountain
2. you get positions so that your poisoner can only be attacked from that mountain (avoid protecting with archers, as they're ulf meat too)
3. your opponent remove the poisoned unit to heal it
4. he attacks the poisoner with an ulf and kills it
5. you finish off that ulf with gobs or grunts (with support of an archer depending on situation)
6. come with a troll to reach the mountain

Casualties are rather equal but you'll certainly have received more damages, on the other hand, you poisoned a unit and you earned a strategic slot. No need to tell that you'll lose more than your opponent if you apply that example during day.

Again, I feel obliged to warn any that read my messages that I'm not a "top-ranked" player and that my speeches must NOT be blindly trust. Just experienced on your own.

[Blarumyrran]

His recruits proves it as he didn't recruit any poachers nor footpads, nor ulfs, and attacked with thieves from swamp (not voluntarily though) and from water (no excuse this time), and many others mistakes.

footpads? i might not play much knalgans, but still, whats the point of footpads on blitz if you already have griffins? (i mean on blitz, theres not much scouting space to exploit footpads, the water is better for griffins and the land is full of heavy units where footpads get crushed. footpads' resistances and damages arent really going to impress anyone.).

tho what he did with thieves was indeed, well, interesting .

[JW]

In response to Syntax Error:

Footpad: 14g
Gryphon: 24g

Footpad has better defense and a ranged attack.

[Blarumyrran]

better defence? the only place where griffins&dwarves wont do bettter is forest, and in forests, you can have poachers, who have 2 more hp and a considerable ranged attack for the same cost.


EDIT: dang. my fault. i didnt notice poachers had only 60% and thieves 70% in forest.

[JW]

better defence? the only place where griffins&dwarves wont do bettter is forest, and in forests, you can have poachers, who have 2 more hp and a considerable ranged attack for the same cost.


EDIT: dang. my fault. i didnt notice poachers had only 60% and thieves 70% in forest.

I was just comparing the Footpad to the Gryphon. The Thief has the same defense as the Footpad but no ranged, is 1g cheaper and slower, the Poacher is the same cost as the Footpad, worse defense but better resists, a better ranged, but much slower.

But you already know this.

[Thrawn]

better defence? the only place where griffins&dwarves wont do bettter is forest, and in forests, you can have poachers, who have 2 more hp and a considerable ranged attack for the same cost.


EDIT: dang. my fault. i didnt notice poachers had only 60% and thieves 70% in forest.

umm, hills (70% v 60/50%)
-------forest(mentioned)
-------grassland (60% v 50-30%)
-------villages (70% v 50%)

footpads have elusive foot...they are better than dwarves everywhere but mountains, and better tan gryphons everywhere other than water.

^ in regards to defense of course

[krotop]

Footpads have 1 more MP than poachers which is not such a minor matter and do a little more damage (impact) at melee, which is important for defense vs grunt and even more against trolls.

Though, I agree that poachers hold forests, castle and villages longer than footpads. But against a massive army of melee fighters attacking you (like in that game as Higher Game recruited no archers) I'd rather use footpads. Footpads are good for ZoC too. To finish with, they not that expensive and you can put them in plains if really needed for defence instead of your griffin (you certainly don't want a 24 gp to be hurt by those dirty orcs).