Counter Units

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 28th, 2006, 6:58 pm

The Draug's attack does just about the same amount of damage to an Assassin, and it has greater blade resistance and IIRC greater HP. It also has the previously mentioned advantage of the Assassin having to attack into its main weapon if it wants to deal any kind of decent damage.

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 28th, 2006, 10:56 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:The Draug's attack does just about the same amount of damage to an Assassin, and it has greater blade resistance and IIRC greater HP. It also has the previously mentioned advantage of the Assassin having to attack into its main weapon if it wants to deal any kind of decent damage.

But the Lich has the magic attack that is almost sure to hit an assassin. With the Draug, you aren't going to be quite as sure to hit it.

Flametrooper · Post by **Flametrooper** » October 29th, 2006, 2:37 am

The best counters for most elusivefoots are magical units; a Mage at day does 9-3 (if I calculate right; 7-3 * 25% bonus = 7+(~2) and 3 atcks) to a thief, potentially killing it in one round; there is no back attack; and there is a significantly higher CTH/K than any of the other units suggested.
Lacking a mage, however, a heavy-damage blade opponent is the best way to go.

pqueiro · Post by **pqueiro** » October 29th, 2006, 10:55 am

Thing is, you also stand a pretty decent chance not to hit all three times - thus not killing the thief, particularly at night, when you do -25% - and your counter is nigh useless against them... and it only gets worse if, say, it's two thieves backstabbing you

which means that your expensive mage stands a good chance of being totally wasted.

A heavy fighter, despite lower chances to hit, has a much higher chance of survival, and when it does hit the chance to kill isn't much lower

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 29th, 2006, 11:41 am

Glowing Fish wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:The Draug's attack does just about the same amount of damage to an Assassin, and it has greater blade resistance and IIRC greater HP. It also has the previously mentioned advantage of the Assassin having to attack into its main weapon if it wants to deal any kind of decent damage.
But the Lich has the magic attack that is almost sure to hit an assassin. With the Draug, you aren't going to be quite as sure to hit it.

*sigh*

You're seeing only one side of the issue. The Lich is more likely to hit, but the Draug has more swings AND does more damage per hit. Assuming neutral time of day and the Assassin is at 60% defense, the Draug does an average of 16 * 4 * 40% damage (25.6), has a 13% chance of missing all swings, and has a very reasonable chance of dealing out >36 damage, while the Lich does an average of 12 * 3 * 70% damage (25.2), has a 3% chance of missing all swings, and has a 0% chance of dealing out >36 damage.

Also, just as with the Thief vs. Dwarvish Fighter, the Assassin can't use its primary weapon against the Draug without risking death (except maybe at Daytime.)

- - - - -

I've never much liked Mages against elusivefoot units. Most of them are decent melee units, meaning that the Mage really needs its defenders - and then you're using a whole entourage just to kill a few units. The one elusivefoot unit that isn't is the Orcish Assassin, and that's awful for mages anyway.

Plus, the magical special isn't all that useful against them, because it's usually coupled with the Fire or Cold damage types, which elusivefoot units are quite a bit more resistant to. 10 magical fire damage does an average of 7 damage against an elusivefoot unit at 60% defense, while 10 mundane blade damage does 5.2. A significant difference, to be sure, but not worth the extra cost and weakness of magical units.

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 29th, 2006, 9:52 pm

I have a personal preference for magic attacks that isn't totally logical. I get frustrated when my unit misses every shot...I like the near certainity you can get with a Magic attack that at least one hit is going to get in. Of course, when a mage does miss all its shot, it makes me even more frustrated!

Flametrooper · Post by **Flametrooper** » October 30th, 2006, 1:02 am

Actually, upon further thinking, it would seem that a Deathblade is the best counter for a thief (or for a Rogue, if you would compare units to those of equal level). It has:
-Blade damage, which the Rogue has -30% resistance to.
-5 strikes, each of decent power, which increase its CTK.
-High resistance to both the Rogue's damage types.
-Immunity to poison. (Though the rogue only gets that at L3.)

At night, a Deathblade does 13-5 to a Rogue. 4/5 of these must hit to kill, which is admittedly a lot if it's elusive, but just 3/5 must hit to get it down to 1 HP and then something else gets the kill (as Deathblades do not level, giving them too much XP is not wise). Even at day, it still manages 8-5 to a rogue, which can potentially kill it, if all 5 of its attacks hit.

Xeron_ · Post by **Xeron_** » October 30th, 2006, 9:55 am

got the clou now

Well. let me continue asking around a bit...
What's the most decent knalgan counter to ghosts?

They got no fire and no holy attacks - i always thought thunderers are pretty decent even with reduced damage ghosts are in sever problems when hit by those guns.

Xandria · Post by **Xandria** » October 30th, 2006, 11:23 am

You have to get lucky, but yes - thunderers need exactly two hits, regardless of time of day, to finish a ghost. Thus, anytime you shoot him with two, you have a 1/4 chance to be rid of him for good.

YbeRn00b · Post by **YbeRn00b** » October 30th, 2006, 8:17 pm

Thunderers indeed.

But how to kill woses as ud?

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 30th, 2006, 9:08 pm

YbeRn00b wrote:But how to kill woses as ud?

Skeletons at night. Some people also reccomend Ghouls. If it's alone and you want to play it safe, Dark Adepts can shoot it.

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 30th, 2006, 9:52 pm

Death Blades are good against Woses, at night.

The thing about Woses is, even if they are strong during the day, they can't run away very far at night.

Xandria · Post by **Xandria** » October 31st, 2006, 8:39 am

Indeed. The wose is so clumsy that he is bound to be hit by anything thrown his way. 20% defense in a village? So, ghouls can stop his regeneration, adepts soften him up and a skeleton does nice 9-3 at night to him, which hurts.

A hint: I have seen several people shoot a full-hp wose with a skully archer, when they had no other unit to press the attack with. This is a no-no in most cases, as the wose is likely to live longer than a skully standing next to a wose. You don't want the tree to level-up.

Higher Game · Post by **Higher Game** » November 1st, 2006, 3:34 am

Orc slayers are probably the only unit with no real counter to. They have a powerful ranged attack that poisons, a powerful melee attack, good speed, and they're almost impossible to hit with a non-magical unit. It can take 3 or 4 level 1's several turns to kill one, and there will almost certainly be 1-2 casualties. I'm just glad they don't level up, since that would take it way too far!

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » November 1st, 2006, 4:07 am

Higher Game wrote:Orc slayers are probably the only unit with no real counter to. They have a powerful ranged attack that poisons, a powerful melee attack, good speed, and they're almost impossible to hit with a non-magical unit. It can take 3 or 4 level 1's several turns to kill one, and there will almost certainly be 1-2 casualties. I'm just glad they don't level up, since that would take it way too far!

The Deathblade is resistant against its attacks, can't be poisoned, and has 5 attacks, which means it has a good chance to eventually hit even an elusive foot.