Counter Units

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 27th, 2006, 5:27 am

I was just thinking I would start a thread where we discuss the obvious: the fact that every unit (just about) in Wesnoth has some sort of counter unit. For example, (one of) the best counter unit to the Drake Clasher is the Elvish Sorceress, or perhaps the Dark Sorcerer. One of the best counter units for the Thief is the Mage. And so on. Some of these are fairly clear cut, others are more hard. There are a few Wesnoth units that I don't think have counter units at all, and their is no strategy but equal or better numbers to defeat them. Of course, a counter unit should be about the same level as the unit it counters...otherwise, we could say that the Fire Dragon is the counter unit for everything!

Anyway, does anyone have any counter units they would like to note?

toms · Post by **toms** » October 27th, 2006, 7:54 am

A good counter to all elusive foots is the elvish marksman.

Xeron_ · Post by **Xeron_** » October 27th, 2006, 9:55 am

if i play northerners/knalgen, what is my counter to fencers and thieves?

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 27th, 2006, 9:58 am

Xeron_ wrote:if i play northerners/knalgen, what is my counter to fencers and thieves?

If you play northerners/knalgan, your best choice is the Dwarvish Grunt.

Xeron_ · Post by **Xeron_** » October 27th, 2006, 10:43 am

i don't get u .... both got no magic attack or marksmanship, so units with high defence values are a problem for me. - what does this have to do with clumsy heavy melee?

YbeRn00b · Post by **YbeRn00b** » October 27th, 2006, 2:24 pm

Dwarf grunts fight better and lasts longer, it is that simple.
As for orcs, trolls can to the same job.

20% resistance vs -20% and half the hp...

Post by **Baufo** » October 27th, 2006, 2:50 pm

Dwarvish Grunts = teh pwnage

Xandria · Post by **Xandria** » October 27th, 2006, 5:16 pm

Against the elusive foot units, the best counter are unit capable of a few devastating strikes. Why? An elvish warrior will hit a thief once, most of the time. If two warriors attack the thief, and he suffers some... 12? ... damage, he will withdraw to heal. Now, let us check the Wose, for example, or the Thunderer. The big hitter attacks, misses. Thus, the thief stays in the fight. This continues until you hit with your big attack. The footpad/thief/fencer is almost dead that instant, and all you need is one strike, or not even that, to end his pitiful existance - he doesn't get a chance to withdraw.

Of course, you will be very prone to bad luck with this approach: it is more likely that you waste all your big attacks on the annoying punk, without a single point of damage done, that to miss with all strikes of a couple of elvish fighters. But then, we go for kills: an injured unit deals no less damage than a full-hp one.

Of course, the best approach is to deal lots of strikes with big damage. For example, to counter Orcish Assassins with the forces of Knalga, use double-backstab thieves. The ork moves in to poison someone. Nice. Surround him with two thieves, voila -> 6 attacks at 12/15 damage = dead orc. The added bonus is that the assassin is more likely to miss the thief with all three attacks, and that you don't care as much whether a thief lives or dies. Yes, they're cute, but cheap

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 27th, 2006, 7:22 pm

Xeron_ wrote:i don't get u .... both got no magic attack or marksmanship, so units with high defence values are a problem for me. - what does this have to do with clumsy heavy melee?

Dwarf Fighters have 30% resistance to thieves' and fencers' attacks, while thieves and fencers have 30% weakness against Dwarf Fighters' attacks.

Orcish Grunts don't have the resistance, but they do have a significant cost advantage.

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 27th, 2006, 8:00 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Xeron_ wrote:i don't get u .... both got no magic attack or marksmanship, so units with high defence values are a problem for me. - what does this have to do with clumsy heavy melee?
Dwarf Fighters have 30% resistance to thieves' and fencers' attacks, while thieves and fencers have 30% weakness against Dwarf Fighters' attacks.

Orcish Grunts don't have the resistance, but they do have a significant cost advantage.

Although it takes a while for a Dwarf to hit a Thief!
Actually, poachers would perhaps be a better counter to thieves, because four attacks is more than three, and thieves don't have a ranged attack.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 27th, 2006, 8:49 pm

Glowing Fish wrote:Although it takes a while for a Dwarf to hit a Thief!

Think about it though -

A Dwarf does 9-3 to a thief, potentially killing it in one round.
A backstabbing strong thief at Night does 9-3 to a dwarf, potentially killing it in two rounds.
...
A non-backstabbing non-strong thief at Day does 2-3 to a dwarf, potentially killing it in 7 rounds. Lol.

Glowing Fish wrote:Actually, poachers would perhaps be a better counter to thieves, because four attacks is more than three, and thieves don't have a ranged attack.

Against a Dwarf Fighter, the thief has no choice but to risk death every time it attacks. Against a poacher... meh.

Post by **Noyga** » October 27th, 2006, 8:56 pm

Yes poachers are nice for killing those units. With a group of poacher you have great chances to kill one in one turn
Btw those units are also much more vulnerable to fencers and thieves than are dwarvish grunts, so versus a group of fencers/thieves a group of dwarvish fighters would likely take less losses than a group of poachers

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 28th, 2006, 5:55 am

That is the same problem with Mages, that they don't defend well against thieves.
Thieves, as far as units go, don't have any real good counter units. Although since they lack a ranged attack, various units with ranged attacks work well enough for them.

Clonkinator · Post by **Clonkinator** » October 28th, 2006, 4:40 pm

Oh, I would call a lich a PERFECT counter unit for thieves...
Well, it's a lvl 3 unit, but...

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » October 28th, 2006, 4:50 pm

Clonkinator wrote:Oh, I would call a lich a PERFECT counter unit for thieves...
Well, it's a lvl 3 unit, but...

It is one of the better units to counter the Assassin. Resistant to blade, pierce, and can't be poisoned.