HttT - What should I be upgrading to?

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Angry Andersen
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Post by Angry Andersen » November 6th, 2006, 4:32 pm

It depends on how you use them. Of course scouts are not made for the thick of battle, and if they would excel there, why ever build something else ?

I think their purpose is mostly for flanking the opponent, forcing him to subtract units from the main force to deal with the scouts.

Also remember that a well used scout is the first one to stand on a village (except against another scout), in which case he regenerates while the unit that tries to remove him from the village does not.

jg
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Post by jg » November 6th, 2006, 4:40 pm

But on the other hand you need to look at the good defence values (compared to the other horses) as well as that it costs only 18 gold (compared to the 23 of the horseman). The great quickness thorugh forest is something no other horse has, and can easily distract the enemy, but is not easy to kill (since it is very swift).

I would like to see you win me on a foresty map, where I can use Elvish Scouts, and you can only use cavalry, or horsemen, or wolves...

Of course you also have a point, but if we make every unit a strong one, we get a bunch of same units in the end. You need to look at the whole elvish faction, instead of only one unit (IMO).

jg

BeRzErKeR
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Post by BeRzErKeR » November 7th, 2006, 2:36 am

I do acknowledge that the Scout lvl 1 has weak attacks. But look at the upgrades:

The Rider has a base 21 melee damage (7-3) and base 18 ranged damage (9-2).

The Outrider has a base 28 melee damage (7-4) and base 27 ranged (9-3).

These are not shabby attacks. In addition, the Scout requires less XP to advance (107) then any other Rebel, Loyalist or orc unit, and both the Rider and the Outrider are among the fastest units in the game. Of the Rebel, Northern (including orcs), and Loyalist units, only the Lancer and Gryphon Rider move as fast as they do, and Riders are significantly more flexible then Lancers, in addition to being able to move through forests without slowing down and having better defense then other horse units. They can fight in forest, they can fight in towns, they can fight anywhere with nearly unmatched speed, they always get to retaliate with strength, they can easily fall back to recuperate or sweep around a flank to capture villages and assassinate leaders or enemy cavalry.

In my HttT game currently, I have three Outriders, and they're well worth all the effort I put in to upgrade them.
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Sly
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Post by Sly » November 7th, 2006, 10:41 am

I agree :D

And I think I'll try someday HttT in "only scout" mode, at least before the caves :P
(I tried "olny mage & shaman" and it was really fun)

Trygvasson
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Post by Trygvasson » November 11th, 2006, 7:37 pm

I find that in general the problem is not defeating the enemy, the problem is keeping my indispensable units alive. Thus I have 3 avengers, 1 sharpshooter. I regret only having 2 shydes, 1 paladin as my only healing units. The paladin healing is not worth it alone, but his holy sword attacks and increased mobility makes it worthwhile.

Are you guys playing on hard? Do you find that you have enough gold to use cannon fodder? I tend to end up in a situation where I have a powerful but expensive army, and I need to finish early to pay for it. Then I lose an 'unlosable' unit in the ensuing melee.

commander keen

Post by commander keen » November 11th, 2006, 9:55 pm

I have that problem too.

Solution:

You don't need to use all of your gold. You can win scenarios always having a positive income and half of your starting gold unspent.

You don't have to recall all of your lvl2's & 3's. Yes, they help, but you can recruit some level 1's instead.

I hope that works. It works on easy, I haven't tried saving gold on medium, but it may work; and I haven't tried playing on hard(yet...)

peet
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Post by peet » November 12th, 2006, 3:40 am

Here's a couple ideas about that.

1. Watch your Upkeep
If you have a pretty good idea of the scenario you're in then you probably know what you will be facing, and that should give you an idea of what you'll need in that scenario.

So if you don't really need that Elvish Champion, don't recall him. Units that have leveled as far as they can no longer need experience, and are there to get you out of really tight spots. Since they require 3 upkeep per turn, having a lot of level 3 units can really drain your gold. Instead, think about calling up that level 1 or 2 guy that's close to leveling up, or recruiting a couple of new units instead. Once a unit has reached level 3 I "semi-retire" him unless he is loyal, using him only when a situation requires it.

The exception is of course, units that can support other units by healing or leadership. The first Elvish Fighter I level up becomes a Captain, and such a leader really helps you level up those first level guys. The Shydes and Druids are the same, though if you have both a Shyde and a Druid available, call the druid unless terrain is going to be a big factor (like in caves). Likewise, for healing you should lean on Moremirmu heavily if possible, since he is loyal and also has a kickass melee attack. Again, Moremirmu is only a liability in terrain heavy maps like caves, and even then he can still move 2 (as opposed to a non-quick Druid who only can move 1 hex).

2. Spending money before you lose 20%
If you are in a scenario where you have established control of a map and are accumulating money steadily, consider recruiting some Horsemen or Gryphon Riders. Since these units cost about 20% more to recruit than to recall, you are can actually save a bit of money in the long term by spending it now. Don't go overboard, but it will make sure that you have Horsemen and Gryphon Riders that you can call later for only 20gp. And if you can get those guys some XP, great! Strangely enough, there are times when I wish I had more Gryphon Riders because I have leveled up mine all to Gryphon Master and so now my scout force requires 2 upkeep each.

Peet

unsung
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Post by unsung » November 12th, 2006, 4:22 am

All I have to say is- Lancers are a godsend.
" OH NO!" Konrad/delfador/kalenz is surrounded! :shock: oh look- a source of 72 possible damage thats ten hexes from the enemy leader- and it can move ten hexes.
:twisted:


If you have a non-intelligent, non-loyal horseman, (or even better, a quick and resillient one) consider making him a lancer- they can make mincmeat out of orc leaders, especially if a knight comeswith him to whittle down its health with a sword attack first. Also a goo dway to get a knight exp, if you do it the other way- and as long as the lancer doesn't die, which is likely.

Never make an intelligient lancer- it's a waste.

And, despite the description of them, they are very usefull defensivley- they have a 12ish-3 meele attack. You should, hoever, keep them far enough away that the enemy can't reach him first. Rule of thumb with mounted troops IMHO.

I also try to make my units have as much health as possible IE I don't make quick archers into marksmen if I can avoid it.
That doesn't really aplly as much outside of HttT though.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

Flametrooper
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Post by Flametrooper » November 12th, 2006, 4:52 am

I'm doing HttT - Cavalry Force now. Basically, recruiting only scouts and horsemen. I would have done only scouts, but that's not so much fun, it's way more frustrating. I'm not trying to do this because I want to show "I'm Awesome", I'm doing it for fun, after all. And Cavalry Force is pretty fun - on MMP, Muff Malal died on turn 3 to a Lancer and I got a 500-some bonus :P even though I think I'm gonna replay that for XP.
The fun thing about this is that you really can strike anywhere you want. If the enemy presents a large, unified force, use hit-and-run and Lancer leader assassination. If there's one crucial weak point, make a cavalry charge for it and break through the lines. It's really cool. Currently, I'm on SoE with 2 knights, a Lancer, an Elvish Outrider, 2 Elvish Riders, and a Horseman in progress of leveling, plus level-2-almost-level-3 Konrad, and something like 1000 gold. On medium.

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov » November 12th, 2006, 5:33 am

Flametrooper wrote:I'm doing HttT - Cavalry Force now. Basically, recruiting only scouts and horsemen.
Good luck with the cave levels.

And if I were you I would go back and get loads more level-ups.

unsung
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Post by unsung » November 12th, 2006, 5:13 pm

Flametrooper- just download the campaign 'unstoppable legion'. you'll fall in love with it.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

Flametrooper
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Post by Flametrooper » November 12th, 2006, 5:45 pm

Zhukov wrote:And if I were you I would go back and get loads more level-ups.
I wrote: on MMP, Muff Malal died on turn 3 to a Lancer and I got a 500-some bonus even though I think I'm gonna replay that for XP.
:roll:

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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel » November 12th, 2006, 11:07 pm

I had some fun on Siege of Elensefar, since I had taken over half the city center before the thieves offered their help. That was goofy.


Personally, I'd offer the following points:
• Get only one or two captains; they're all you need for leadership.
• Get rangers/marksmen according to traits.
• Generally use horsemen/knights as your "hold the line" troops on open ground - they generally have better resistances (unless your enemy has pierce), and have the same defense as everyone else, plus having many hitpoints. They can also really pull back when they need to.

• When you get to hire mermaid initiates, get several of them. They are extremely useful in a few circumstances (valley of death, for example). They make "Isle of the damned" a party.

• Bay of Pearls provides you with enough loyal mermen to last the entire campaign; you won't need to actually hire any. Be sure to get both of the "Storm Tridents".

• Both druids and sorceresses have very powerful offense, and with the new "slow", they can pin most enemies down to not being able to deal much more damage than the druids are healing. This is of course "most", definitely not all. I get a mix of 1 druid for every 2 sorceresses, and always make the dextrous ones sorceresses. A real human opponent would tear this combo apart, but against the AI, these are deadly.

• Mages can be extremely useful in places where sorceresses are not. I generally rely on sorceresses, but against undead, especially ghosts, mages are superior. Mages also get more hitpoints at high levels, and can do the groovy teleport thing if you get silver mages.

• Moremirmu provides you with one exceptional white mage; you don't really need another one.

Gus
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Post by Gus » November 13th, 2006, 2:39 am

Jetryl wrote:I had some fun on Siege of Elensefar, since I had taken over half the city center before the thieves offered their help. That was goofy.
Do you have a replay? I have such a hard time taking the city, i'd love to see how you managed that. I desperately need the strategic help i think, given what you're saying ^^
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

Oreb
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Post by Oreb » November 13th, 2006, 2:54 am

Gus wrote:
Jetryl wrote:I had some fun on Siege of Elensefar, since I had taken over half the city center before the thieves offered their help. That was goofy.
Do you have a replay? I have such a hard time taking the city, i'd love to see how you managed that. I desperately need the strategic help i think, given what you're saying ^^
Taking the city is a cinch. I just let the rogues appear from the north, and keep them taking villages, they don't really die, since they get 70% defense, and that helps split up the orcs.

Anyway, in the game, outriders are useful. Especially in the Valley of Death, I had an Outrider with holy damage, a potent hit and run unit. In the game I tended more towards archers in the beginning, with about 60% of the army being advanced archers. Later on, I tended to my calvary, getting mainly Palidins, with a few Grand Knights, so I was prepared for the Valley of Death.
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