How to play Drakes

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nebula955
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Post by nebula955 »

wow.... :)
although gliders are comparatively much more powerful against ud (skeles meleeing gliders suffer more than against any other drake) than other factions but to mass them...............?

Beholder
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Post by Beholder »

nebula955 wrote:wow.... :)
although gliders are comparatively much more powerful against ud (skeles meleeing gliders suffer more than against any other drake) than other factions but to mass them...............?
It works. Try it!

kingraa
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Post by kingraa »

drakes vs undead, your only hope is to go for all gliders (perhaps buy skirms if it's coming up to night) like the guy said, however this only works on large maps with lots of water/hills etc to slow the adepts down
in RPG, you should aim to have a damage/attack number ratio of 4.2/1 - I'm such a munchkin

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anakayub
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Post by anakayub »

Is this sarcasm or something else? :x I don't think anyone's willing to make the effort to refute this argument, especially considering that the thread was dead for a while with some laughable content from Beholder. I suggest that some MP dev's lock this thread or delete some of these stuff until JW/somebody else's going to update the content. We don't want new players to be fooled into thinking that a scout should be used as your main attacking/defending unit, etc.
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Post by Yogibear »

anakayub wrote:Is this sarcasm or something else? :x I don't think anyone's willing to make the effort to refute this argument, especially considering that the thread was dead for a while with some laughable content from Beholder. I suggest that some MP dev's lock this thread or delete some of these stuff until JW/somebody else's going to update the content. We don't want new players to be fooled into thinking that a scout should be used as your main attacking/defending unit, etc.
Yes, new players shouldn't be fooled.

Yes and no. A all gilder strategy against undead might work well against an inexperienced player. A good player however will show you its limits pretty fast :wink: .

No, we won't lock this thread, just because someone thinks he has found the holy grail playing drakes and is wrong. Discussion is welcome unless it starts to become offending. There are enough good players reading this and correcting where they think it's necessary.

Edit:
If this gets out of control we might well think about splitting it to somewhere else, though.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!

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anakayub
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Post by anakayub »

Thanks, Yogi :)

Kingraa: I suggest that you read JW's General Drake Strategies first. Gliders are only useful if you need them to finish attacks, not start them. Other units should be the main options to begin any attack.

When going against the Undead, your best bet is attacking when they're weakest, e.g. at day. Thus using all Drakes would be much more useful rather than having Saurians. Use Drake mobility at its best, as DA's (the most threatening UD unit to drakes) have a slow movetype. Full attack at day, full retreat at night. Repeat. Whether you use fighters or clashers should depend on the map, but generally fighters are better due to their higher mobility (to make it easier to reach those DA's), and being cheap. Even though your burners are the main fire options, fighters can also do the job as well against skellies, and it's probably only here is where gliders are useful for attacking units, especially finishing them (marksman).
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Gliders arn't horible, however fighters are better at fighting, clashers eat dark adepts at day, both can do decently vs skelotons, burners do realy well against skelotons, all of the mentioned get decimated by dark adepts at night, so what you need to do is make it so that you don't need to face a dark adept at night.
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Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

anakayub, saurian skirmie's should be recruited (albeit not many) simply because of how powerful DA's are v. drakes. If they are shielded and can go back to heal after getting a kill, they may level. The skirmisher ability comes into play here, as you can get through many ZOC walls and deal that last little bit of damage to a DA in order to prevent him from becoming a dark sorcerer.

You may lose your saurian (if you don't, he's easier to retreat than most units) but if your opponent does concentrate on attacking him, the ZOC wall your opponent obviously had protecting his DA and villages will most likely be compromised, letting you break behind your opponent's units and flank them.

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anakayub
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Post by anakayub »

I think that depends on the particular playstyle, as well as the map. Using saurians allow an extra unit to attack, while going all drakes allow you to focus on daytime attack. On maps like weldyn channel, using all flying can allow you to overcome zoc and kill the adepts by outflanking via the channel (even after the changes, though it's more difficult). This strategy would be more difficult on a map like onis (less room to maneuver), and here I'd agree to use skirmishers. Gold is a factor as well, as on a small map like Isar's you don't have a lot of gold, and being gold efficient becomes very important.

I guess I was too extreme in my previous statement, as I've seen players focus too much on saurians to match the player at night, and end up getting slaughtered. Anyways, my original rant was to point out that Wesnoth is too sophisticated for single unit masses against average opponents. Even between good opponents, there is no hardwired single strategy that is overly successful. It depends on strategy (map, gold, original recruits (especially when random), phase of game (early/late), etc.) as well as tactics which are flexible, adapting to the current situation (which I admittedly am not very good at).

Edited for formatting/grammar.
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JW
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Post by JW »

I'm going to have to release a new version of this guide once 1.4 comes out. There seems to be a demand.

Zlodzei
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Post by Zlodzei »

Can only recommend not to use skirmishers massively. Only use 1 to catch undead forces when day is coming and they are running or do not use at all. Augurs are not so obvious. They are really good no counter poisoning, but you
1) need all the power you can get for day time kick, if you fight UD at nigth then you have lost
2) drakes are mobile, they can retreat to village fast.
3) drakes do not die from poison :), they die from DA. If you opponent uses many poisoners it should mean easy mod for you.

Anyway, if the map is large, villages are far then you usually should use 2 of them. On default 1 vs 1 map better to recruit them only if game is taking long (what doesn't usually happen in Drakes-UD).

And the main thing. All these guides are just a cookies helping new players to start from something, but to become a good player you need think situationally. You can read lots of guides where will be written, for instance, that "Loaylists pwnz Drakes" but when you meet great player kinda Soliton or Gallifax you will think everything but that. :twisted:
I can see you!...

Lone_Isle
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Re: How to play Drakes

Post by Lone_Isle »

Drakes VS Loyalists

Drake vs Loyalist can be easier described as "Drake vs Spearmen". This is THE unit that you'll be fighting against most of the time in this matchup. Any Loyalist that tries to ignore spearmen will simply not stand a chance against drakes. You can easily beat a horseman rush with clashers. Thusly, most of the strategy is dealing with spearmen properly, as spearmen alone are easily capable of defeating the unsuspecting drake player.

Drake Burner
Not exactly an ideal units in the vs loyalist matchup. Burners tend to be very fragile against most loyalist units especially the fearsome spearman. By most counts, a loyalist player knowing he's against drake will go into spearman spam mode.

Make no mistake, Burners are definately quite effective against loyalists, but making sure they stay alive and the fact that they are quite costly can lose you the game if you get even slightly unlucky with an attack.

It is best to recruit burners sparingly and use them wisely. Using burners wisely entails:

1.)Always attacking first with them(i.e. if the loyalist starts the attack it will have been pointless to get burners), and making sure the odds are that they wont be in a position to be counterattacked afterwards.

2.) Try and use them at night. the lower damages that spearmen are much more manageable. However if you're engaging at night its much better to use the saurian units, see below.

Drake Clasher

Clashers are very effective for holding positions in the vs Loyalist matchup, and are even more valuable for killing cavalry/horsemen. You'll be hitting yourself in the head if you start up with a burner/fighter heavy recruit, only to have them randomly 1-hitted by horsemen with no clashers to counter.

You definately want to get more than one of these guys as the loyalist player hasn't anything that is devastatingly effective against a clasher. it will also force him to get units other than simply spearmen.

Attacking spearmen in 60% defense terrain is still a bad call most of the time. If possible, lure them onto open ground where your clashers are at 30% and spearmen at 40%. A much better trade off than 30% vs 60% or even 40% vs 60%.

Needless to say, if there are archers or mages, those command higher priority.

Drake Fighter

Fighters are not effective in this matchup. Put simply, spearmen/horsemen trump fighters.
HOWEVER, as soon as the loyalist player starts to recruit other units, then your fighters have found a role. Like the burner, recruit sparingly and target the soft ones - mages, bowmen etc.
Attacking spearmen with fighters melee attack is a mistake most of the time.

Drake Glider
A bad unit in this match up. The gliders extreme susceptibility to spear/horsemen means you shouldn't try to steal villages until it is nighttime. Finish off low hp units with these. If you can manage to level one into a sky drake then it is definitely worth it.

Saurian Augur

Saurians. Now we're getting somewhere. If you play against loyalist and hire no saurians, it will be very hard to win. Saurians are the KEY in this match up. augurs are perfect for flushing units in defensive terrain. They are weak overall against cavalry, and augurs more so. you will want to get many of these, attack with many of them at a time, and make sure they stay next to each other so they heal each other.

Unless you've already sealed the game, or unless you know what you're doing, do not attack with augurs during day. This is suicide for obvious reasons.

Saurian Skirmisher

skirmishers are great for stealing villages at night as well as holding positions. They can hold their own against spearmen at night owing to their resists, but i don't recommend making more of these than augurs in general. augurs are your main offensive tools, while skirms are great for capping villages, blocking defensive holes etc. Needless to say you will want more skirms against cavalry/horsemen heavy recruits.

Misc

Have a balanced recruit consisting mostly of skirmishers, augurs and clashers. The other 3 are definitely not useless but its hard to go wrong with the first 3 in this matchup.
Try to start the attack at night. You are for all purposes a chaotic faction in this matchup. Your lawful drakes can't stand up to loyalists in day, so you will need your chaotic saurians at night. Your drakes can more safely attack at night, and if you are on your way to winning, can then continue to attack during day.

think aheard. Recruit 1-2 time cycles in advance. If it is afternoon, start getting more saurians. If it near day, perhaps some more drakes. Don't cap villages that you won't be able to hold(e.g. in the reach of more than 1 spearmen) unless its night. Use your leader judiciously as you will likely be on the defensive at first.
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Lone_Isle
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Re: How to play Drakes

Post by Lone_Isle »

Drakes VS Knalgans

This is a difficult matchup. Drakes hit fast and heavy. Dwarves hit hard and stand firm. You will have to use mobility to your advantage. That means beating the more mobile non-dwarf arsenal of the Knalgans first in order to secure victory. Every drake unit has a good role in this matchup.

Drake Burner
A great unit against Knalgans who have no effective melee pierce. Attacking a burner with thunderers invite a damaging retaliation. Guardsmen do alot less damage than spearmen.

Dont fight dwarves entrenched in mountains. Lure them onto open terrain. 30% vs 30% will definately be in your advantage during the day. Burners are great for killing fighters, guardsmen and just about every other knalgan unit.

Drake Clasher

You will be using these against the rogue line of units, as well as defending against dwarf fighters.

As usual, lure them onto open terrain. Attacking fighters on hills/mountains is usually not good. Attacking gryphons isnt a great choice either.
With clashers you have to take the initiative. They are good if they're always doing the attacking. Maneuver them so that they aren't exposed to ranged units on the enemy turn, while on your turn, use them to hit thunderers, poachers, footpads, thieves.


Drake Fighter

thief/foodpad killers. Also good against thunderers. You would use these more or less in the same way as clashers. But fighters are faster with better movement. Use this to your advantage.

Drake Glider
Gliders will tend to have a much higher survival rate here, but beware getting trapped. Steal villages when its safe. As a bonus you can get lucky with them against griffons. Try and punish careless griffon usage if you can by using units such as gliders to trap them.

Saurian Augur

Very effective for flushing out entrenched dwarves or rogues, but weak against the entire knalgan arsenal, ESPECIALLY gryphons/zerkers.
You could forego these altogether but I still think its best not to. Recruit one or two at first and as you gain more confidence in this match up you will know where to position them to be safe. Because knalgan's best asset is their defensive values, it will almost be wasteful not to at least use a few of these.


Saurian Skirmisher

Not as effective as they would be in the vs Rebels matchup. Knalgan units have good pierce resists, and thieves/footpads have high defensive values.
Still not without their use against the same units that fighters are good against. Use these as you would fighters, with the added bonus of picking off low units that you can skirmish through.
It is not wise to use many of these against fighter/guardsmen heavy recruits.

Misc

Trap gryphons whenever you can.

Lure them to the open terrain for a massive advantage.

There is no hard fast way to play this. Make sure the engagements are in your favor terrain wise. Try and occupy all the hill/mountain hexes leaving the forest/open hexes.
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JW
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Re: How to play Drakes

Post by JW »

Not bad advice. Thanks for trying to fill the holes.

I'm not so sure about the Drakes v Loyalist, but it's been a damn long time since I really played at all. I remember using burners more than you recommend. Saurians die easily and do less damage, though their resistancies have been tweaked some so it may be more viable to use them in greater numbers.

Generally good advice though.

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anakayub
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Re: How to play Drakes

Post by anakayub »

Here is a might-be-useful replay of Loy vs Drake. Note the saurian-predominant force, and the fact that (off-topic) I think Loyalists now need to recruit either blade (cav/fencer) or fire (mage) against saurians, units previously considered generally useless for Loyalists, and conversely needs to be considered by the Drake player. Lack of either spells trouble for spearman/archer (range), especially when forced into trying to counter saurians at night. So-called spearman spam has been literally banished for good. Anyways, clashers + saurians coupled sparingly with burners (very much similar to Lone_Isle's updated guide) do very well to make a powerful push, especially starting at dusk.
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