Arguments over sound undead strategies

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DimWit
Posts: 27
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

JW wrote:Undead versus Loyalists:
Ghoul: Useful to hold villages and scare off high hp units. Does your opponent have too many HI to kill in one turn? Poison one and make sure you kill the rest. This guy resists everything except Impact (and obviously Holy) just a little bit, so he can be a nice damage soaker - especially if your opponent focuses on melee.
Pierce - [30%]
Cold - [40%]
Blade - [10%]
Holy - [-100%]
Impact - [0%]
Fire - [10%]

Low res... Low hp jokeable damage... Poison is nice but when nearly everything you fight will kill your 16 gold unit in 2 hits... not worth it....
Dark Adept: Again, your meat. Not as much as with Drakes
yup go mass adepts... which have no melee.... so thier horseman can pick 4-5 off a turn....
Vampire Bat: Don't recruit this unit when fighting Loyalists unless you need a scout unit to cross water to gather villages quickly.
Don't recruit? Its a level 0 unit you rather waste 7 more gold... to get a slower ghost... which costs gold per turn?
Ghost: Get one and probably no more than that.
So you suggest not to get any villages? and allow your enemy to take all villages from you? He with the most gold laughs last...
Skeleton: A good staple unit. Use this to hack up any unit except HI
At night Skeleton does lower damage than a HI
Adepts should be used only for HI's...

DimWit
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Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

Walking Corpse: Use these freebies to beat up Archers, to turn Adepts to your side - if you play it right - and to finish Skeletons who are on bad terrain. In the Zombie v. Skelton matchup, the Skeleton wins unless he has a bow. They are free though, and are great for stopping village stealing, especially at day. After your first wave you might want to buy these for a while to plug terrain and keep your income low.
Have you ever tried a real undead vs undead?

WC are cheap... very cheap... if your not using nub xp .. (30%) just mass wc's WC are resistant to blade and do impact damage. 5-2 turns into 7-2
and skeletons axe(blade) turns into i belive 4-3 (not sure off hand)

The idea if someone is massing Skels... Do mass WC.... When you have over max production of WC income recruit a ghost or two inhopes to get a wraith... Wraiths > all other undead.... The end.

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JW
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Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

About Ghouls:
DimWit wrote:Pierce - [30%]
Cold - [40%]
Blade - [10%]
Holy - [-100%]
Impact - [0%]
Fire - [10%]

Low res... Low hp jokeable damage... Poison is nice but when nearly everything you fight will kill your 16 gold unit in 2 hits... not worth it....
0% Impact is higher than -20% and 10% Fire is higher than -20%, where your 2 biggest threats come from. As for low hp...33 is a little low, so would you rather put the 34hp Skele, 30hp Archer, 28hp Adept, 18hp WCs or Ghost, or 17hp Bats up in the front?

As for killing in 2 hits, the HI kills with 3 hits in day, the Spearman with 5, a Mage takes 5 hits, the Cavalry with 6 (5 if Strong), a Merman with 6 (5 if Strong), and the Fencer with 7 (6 if Strong). The Horseman is the only unit that will kill a Ghoul in 2 hits in daytime.

About Adepts:
DimWit wrote:yup go mass adepts... which have no melee.... so thier horseman can pick 4-5 off a turn....
Yeah, because recruiting Horsemen wins Loyalists the game every time. If you read I say to recruit a bunch, but to protect them with skeleton types and Ghouls.

About Bats:
DimWit wrote:Don't recruit? Its a level 0 unit you rather waste 7 more gold... to get a slower ghost... which costs gold per turn?
A Ghost can take a part in the battle versus HI and can resist non-Mage units during the day. A bat cannot. Go ahead and waste 13 gold on a near-useless unit if you want. It does have it's times, but not on most balanced 1v1 maps.

About Ghosts:
DimWit wrote:So you suggest not to get any villages? and allow your enemy to take all villages from you? He with the most gold laughs last...
You usually only need 1 scout unit to grab villages. If you actually need more, recruit more. Maybe if you play poorly and make bad decisions you need more Bats to fly around grabbing up the villages the previous Bats lost by getting killed. Ghosts can usally take a village and hold it for a turn until backup arrives - which is important. It's not he who has the most gold who laughs last, it's he who uses his gold most effectively who does.
DimWit wrote:
Skeleton: A good staple unit. Use this to hack up any unit except HI
At night Skeleton does lower damage than a HI
Adepts should be used only for HI's...
That's exactly what I'm saying here in good and clear English. Skeletons are bad against HI. What happened to not recruiting DAs against the hordes of Horsemen idea though? You seemed pretty convinced that's what would happen if you recruited any.
DimWit wrote:Have you ever tried a real undead vs undead?
-as opposed to the fake ones I've played in the past?
DimWit wrote:WC are cheap... very cheap... if your not using nub xp .. (30%) just mass wc's WC are resistant to blade and do impact damage. 5-2 turns into 7-2
and skeletons axe(blade) turns into i belive 4-3 (not sure off hand)
You're right, WCs are cheap - and that's for a reason: they have 18 hp and a 5-2 attack to go along with their 4 moves and no ZOC. I'm sure you're quite experienced at how 30% games turn out, as well as all of those other crazy settings like 5gpv and no fog, but all of my advice is given for 1v1 matchups on balanced maps between players who each have 100 starting gold and 70% exp with fog turned on.

Just to catch you up with reality though, WCs don't resist Blade or Impact. Skeles do 9-3 to WCs at night - killing them in 2 blows. WCs do 7-2 in return. End result assuming they each hit twice: dead WC and a Skele at 20 hp.
DimWit wrote:The idea if someone is massing Skels... Do mass WC.... When you have over max production of WC income recruit a ghost or two inhopes to get a wraith... Wraiths > all other undead.... The end.
Mass WCs so you can waste all your money on slow, weak, non-ZOCing units that are easily killed? I don't think so. They are good to have, but not that many.

As for recruiting a Ghost to level into a Wraith? How do you expect to get 21xp with only Cold damage and no real Drain potential? Even if you did, a better unit to level would be a Skeleton into a Deathblade or a WC into a Soulless for +/- 4 xp to level for each unit compared to the Ghost.

DimWit
Posts: 27
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

WCs don't resist Blade or Impact.
movement_type=undeadfoot
......

Code: Select all

	
[movetype]
	name=undeadfoot
		[movement_costs]
		deep_water=4
		shallow_water=3
		swamp_water=2
		grassland=1
		sand=2
		forest=2
		hills=2
		mountains=3
		village=1
		castle=1
		cave=2
		canyon=100
		cavewall=100
		tundra=2
		[/movement_costs]

		[defense]
		deep_water=90
		shallow_water=80
		swamp_water=70
		grassland=60
		sand=70
		forest=50
		hills=50
		mountains=40
		village=40
		castle=40
		cave=60
		canyon=80
		tundra=60
		[/defense]

		[resistance]
		blade=90
		pierce=70
		impact=110
		fire=120
		cold=40
		holy=200
		[/resistance]
	[/movetype]
blade=90
pierce=70
impact=110
fire=120
cold=40
holy=200

calculations of res is done considering 100+ is negative and less than 100 is postive so....

+10 blade res
+30 pierce res
-10 impac res
-20 fire res
+60 cold res
-100 holy res
As for recruiting a Ghost to level into a Wraith? How do you expect to get 21xp with only Cold damage and no real Drain potential?
when a lvl 1 unit attacks you thats .... 1 xp placed on a village...
21 attacks is very feasible...
WC are cheap... very cheap... if your not using nub xp .. (30%)
Simply if your not using noob xp at extreme low of 30% you don't have to worry if you lose a couple WC's considering you can lose 2 for each skel and still be getting better value for your gold ....
Last edited by DimWit on May 6th, 2006, 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JW
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Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

Maybe you should try playing the game sometime. Fight a Skele with a WC and see what damage it deals.

Stop this now, you're simply wrong.

DimWit
Posts: 27
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

What happened to not recruiting DAs against the hordes of Horsemen idea though?
Again, your meat. Not as much as with Drakes, but you'll want these guys near your front line at all times to counter-attack HI and to knock out the high defense Fencers.
fencers have no weakness to cold..
blade=-30
pierce=-20
impact=-20
fire=0
cold=0
holy=20

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zookeeper
WML Wizard
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Post by zookeeper »

Walking corpses have movement_type=smallfoot by default. I'd vote for deleting all these pointless posts from this thread, too.

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JW
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Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

DimWit wrote:
What happened to not recruiting DAs against the hordes of Horsemen idea though?
Again, your meat. Not as much as with Drakes, but you'll want these guys near your front line at all times to counter-attack HI and to knock out the high defense Fencers.
fencers have no weakness to cold..
blade=-30
pierce=-20
impact=-20
fire=0
cold=0
holy=20
You're so good at math, do this math:

DA: INT(10*1.25*1.00)*0.7*2 = 16.8
Skele: INT(7*1.25*1.30)*0.4*3 = 13.2

That's the expected value of damage against a Fencer on *grassland* from a DA and a Skeleton. Which is better?
Last edited by JW on May 6th, 2006, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

DimWit
Posts: 27
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

zookeeper wrote:Walking corpses have movement_type=smallfoot by default. I'd vote for deleting all these pointless posts from this thread, too.
#macro to define most of Walking Corpse
#define UNIT_BODY_WALKING_CORPSE BASE_IMAGE

id=Walking Corpse
name= _ "Walking Corpse"
race=undead
image="{BASE_IMAGE}.png"
image_defensive="{BASE_IMAGE}-attack.png"
hitpoints=18
movement_type=undeadfoot
movement=4
undeadfoot....

when calculating damage its ... f(a)=((a-(a *.10))*n) where function of a is damage modified by {.25,0,-.25} & n as attacks...

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

DimWit wrote:
zookeeper wrote:Walking corpses have movement_type=smallfoot by default. I'd vote for deleting all these pointless posts from this thread, too.
#macro to define most of Walking Corpse
#define UNIT_BODY_WALKING_CORPSE BASE_IMAGE

id=Walking Corpse
name= _ "Walking Corpse"
race=undead
image="{BASE_IMAGE}.png"
image_defensive="{BASE_IMAGE}-attack.png"
hitpoints=18
movement_type=undeadfoot
movement=4
undeadfoot....
Incorrect.
Wesnoth 1.1.2a wrote:

Code: Select all

#macro to define most of Walking Corpse
#define UNIT_BODY_WALKING_CORPSE BASE_IMAGE MOVETYPE MOVES HP
id=Walking Corpse
name= _ "Walking Corpse"
race=undead
image="units/undead/{BASE_IMAGE}.png"
hitpoints={HP}
movement_type={MOVETYPE}
movement={MOVES}
...
...
...
[unit]
	{UNIT_BODY_WALKING_CORPSE zombie smallfoot 4 18}
...
...
...
[/unit]

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

JW wrote:Another assumption is that the game is being played on the latest version of Wesnoth (currently 1.1.2a).
The thread clarifying that did appear after the undead strategy thread, so that should be ample reason for all parties to stop this silliness.

DimWit
Posts: 27
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

yup the wml i used was considering the stable version ... which is used majority for multiplayer.

Here is how to calculate damage for attacks...

To find a percent divide the percent your looking for by 100 : P/100

For this i am using Skeleton and Walking Corpse during day.
No number should be rounded down till the last number....
damage * decimal percent = percent of damage
7 * .25 = 1.75
7 + 25% = 8.75


TimeOfDay = {.25,0,.25}
m= damage +/- (damage * TimeOfDay)
r = total resistance/100
n = number of attacks

f(m)=((m +/- (m*r) ) *n)

To figure the solution figure time of day.... for chaotic
Night = .25 +(25%)
Dawn = 0
Day = .25 -(25%)

So its day{.25} and our skel does 7-2 blade damage.

M will represent our damage modified with -25%
7*.25 = 1.75 which is 25% of 7
7- 25% = 5.25

So our damage is now 5
but WC's have resistance....
so thats another -10%
5.25*.1 = .525
so 5 - 10% = 4.475

so we now do 4-3
4*3 = 12 max possible damage
4*2 = 8 average damage
4*1 = 4 bad luck damage

But what does a WC do during day?
Well plug our numbers into the formula....

4-2 or
4*2 = 8
4*1 = 4

Skels cost alot more gold than a WC and WC have no upkeep.. and can mass produce themselfs...
Last edited by DimWit on May 6th, 2006, 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M »

DimWit wrote:yup the wml i used was considering the stable version ... which is used majority for multiplayer.
Really?

cos, I said in the other thread:
Ranger M wrote:
DimWit wrote: Dev version isn't considered .... when talking strats.... since 99.9% of players play on stable.... :wink:
I'm sorry, but have you even looked at the pole in the users forum?

Currently:

SVN 6
1.1.2 24
1.0.2 1

Seems that the majorty of multiplayer users use 1.1.2 (a)

DimWit
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Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 6:01 am

Post by DimWit »

Ranger M wrote:
DimWit wrote:yup the wml i used was considering the stable version ... which is used majority for multiplayer.
Really?

cos, I said in the other thread:
Ranger M wrote: I'm sorry, but have you even looked at the pole in the users forum?

Currently:

SVN 6
1.1.2 24
1.0.2 1

Seems that the majorty of multiplayer users use 1.1.2 (a)
you quote yourself to say the same incorrect unfounded statement?

LOG ONTO MULTIPLAYER AND TRY IT ONCE!

Theres maybe at any given time 4 people logged in on dev... while stable theres 30-40 people.... huge diffrence. Polls just count those that log on to this site.....

EVER THINK alot of players don't come here cause
(A) They dont care
(B) They don't speak english
(C) They are busy playing on stable...

Instead of making another responds to thread below i responded by editing this one....

(A) They don't care

I didn't sign the poll... Why? Cause who really cares about a poll like that except people that spend thier entire day at the forums not playing..?


I wasn't trying to make JW look stupid....
You're so good at math, do this math:
DA: INT(10*1.25*1.00)*0.7*2 = 16.8
Skele: INT(7*1.25*1.30)*0.4*3 = 13.2
Is incorrect... Theres not more than one way i can say this....
Last edited by DimWit on May 6th, 2006, 11:19 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M »

DimWit wrote:you quote yourself to say the same incorrect dumfounded statement?

LOG ONTO MULTIPLAYER AND TRY IT ONCE!

Theres maybe at any given time 4 people logged in on dev... while stable theres 30-40 people.... huge diffrence. Polls just count those that log on to this site.....

EVER THINK alot of players don't come here cause
(A) They dont care
(B) They don't speak english
(C) They are busy playing on stable...
Sorry, but I can't. My current Wesnoth is broken, and I'm too busy right now to go through and install the whole lot again.

However, nobody who doesn't log onto the forums (for the reasons that you stated there) is going to read this, so actually using a poll from the people who will see this is a good idea.

please, think before you try to make somebody seem stupid.

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