How to play Knalgans

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Noy
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Post by Noy » May 4th, 2006, 10:00 pm

I don't know JW, I think in a lot of cases you overstate the usefulness of the Poacher. I wouldn't normally buy Poachers when playing against the Rebels, Loyalists, Northerners or Undead. In most cases (unless there are no mountains or hills at all) a thunderer is a better choice. I certainly wouldn't call it the best unit against the Loyalists either. They may provide some ability to move into areas that dwarves are traditionally poor in, but overall they get slaughtered if left out on their own, and do mediocre damage. Really the only place I buy them is against drakes for obvious reasons.

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appleide
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Post by appleide » May 4th, 2006, 10:11 pm

Noy, What would you do to someone who recruits only Cavalry (For villages) and the hold villages/advance with Heavy Infantry??
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Post by JW » May 4th, 2006, 10:14 pm

Noy wrote:I don't know JW, I think in a lot of cases you overstate the usefulness of the Poacher. I wouldn't normally buy Poachers when playing against the Rebels, Loyalists, Northerners or Undead.
I find Poachers to be very good against Northerners and Loyalists. Against Rebels not as much and against Undead even less.

I'll go back through and look it over later, unless you want to call my attention to a particular idea/sentence you think isn't spot on.

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Post by Yogin2 » May 4th, 2006, 10:22 pm

I think all three of the outlaws fill similar purposes. Their three primary advantages are (a) They have good defenses where dwarves don't, (b) they're faster than the majority of dwarves, and (c) they cost less than dwarves.

Playing knalgans, you typically need some units to fill all three purposes. The question is which. I used to prefer the footpad for that purpose. I used it primarily to village grab, and to fill defensive holes useful in covering ulfs. Now, I typically use thieves since they're of use offensively which footpads aren't. Yes, they die quicker than footpads, and I'll lose a handful of gold if there are 7 move villages I could've grabbed with the footpad. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to take for the damage upgrade at night. Occasionally, on maps with lots of swamp/forest, or with units that are vuln. to ranged/pierce, I'll use a poacher or two instead of thieves/footpads. Which outlaw you use I guess comes down to a matter of preference. The footpad is mostly defensive. The thief is both defensive and offensive. The poacher is ranged offensive, ok defense in swamps/forests, but not really elsewhere.

JW values the poacher above the other two, I guess. Personally, I currently lean towards thieves, but now that I think about it, I might get a footpad on turn 1 if 2+ villages are 7/8 hexes away(along with gryphon), and it can village leap on turn 2 and 3 netting me 5-6g extra.

PS> the thing for newbies to note is that whichever outlaw, or outlaws you decide to use, they are mainly a support unit. If you're playing knalgans, the bulk of your army should be made of dwarves.

PPS> re: poachers vs. ghosts. Poacher does 3-4 @ night vs. ghosts, so has a 69% chance of inflicting 6+ damage, 31% chance of 9+ @ night compared to the 50% chance of a thunderer to inflict 9 damage at any time of night. To kill ghosts, thunderers are definitely the most efficient, even at night. However, as a finisher for <6 hp ghosts @ night, the poacher fills the role better. Given ToD constraints, and finishing constraints, I'd take the thunderer to fill this role. Sometimes, however, one just doesn't have that extra 3g.
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Post by Yogin2 » May 4th, 2006, 10:24 pm

appleide wrote:Noy, What would you do to someone who recruits only Cavalry (For villages) and the hold villages/advance with Heavy Infantry??
Umm, someone who's using cavalry for villages won't be holding their villages very long. Oh, also, in almost all cases a thunderer is better than a poacher vs. cavalry. Simple matter of poor defense. High strikes are more useful vs. high defense units (eg. Fencer).
<sapientx> [The heavy fighter]'s like a cross between an HI and a mage
<sapientx> I couldn't decide whether to guard him or put him on the front line

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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by Yogin2 » May 4th, 2006, 11:04 pm

JW wrote:For appleide:
Knalgans versus Loyalists

Poacher: The best countering unit to Loyalists. His multiple strikes are of better use against the high defense Fencer, his ranged Pierce is great against the mounted units, his attack does 4-4 to HI at night, and this is the unit you'll want to use against Spearen as well.
4*1.25*.6 = 3 damage, so 3-4 against HI @ night.
2-4 against HI @ all other times.

I'd take the 11-1 of the thunderer over the poacher unless you could put him in a forest. Also, the thunderer hurts less and takes less damage on counter-attack.

6-4 @ night vs. fencer rocks, tho.
<sapientx> [The heavy fighter]'s like a cross between an HI and a mage
<sapientx> I couldn't decide whether to guard him or put him on the front line

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Post by Noy » May 4th, 2006, 11:17 pm

Yogin2 wrote:I think all three of the outlaws fill similar purposes. Their three primary advantages are (a) They have good defenses where dwarves don't, (b) they're faster than the majority of dwarves, and (c) they cost less than dwarves.

Playing knalgans, you typically need some units to fill all three purposes. The question is which. I used to prefer the footpad for that purpose. I used it primarily to village grab, and to fill defensive holes useful in covering ulfs. Now, I typically use thieves since they're of use offensively which footpads aren't. Yes, they die quicker than footpads, and I'll lose a handful of gold if there are 7 move villages I could've grabbed with the footpad. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to take for the damage upgrade at night. Occasionally, on maps with lots of swamp/forest, or with units that are vuln. to ranged/pierce, I'll use a poacher or two instead of thieves/footpads. Which outlaw you use I guess comes down to a matter of preference. The footpad is mostly defensive. The thief is both defensive and offensive. The poacher is ranged offensive, ok defense in swamps/forests, but not really elsewhere.
.
Spot on. As well about northerners, the majority of your opponents *should* be trolls with pierce resistance but low defence. I'd take the thunderer over the poacher here. Moreover I tend not to attack Northerns at night precisely because they automatically have an advantage over the rest of the Knalgan army. Sure the Poacher does good damage at night, but the rest of the army doesn't do any more damage. Its better to wait till the morning and attack them then with less chance of being hit by a deadly northerner counter attack.

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JW
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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by JW » May 5th, 2006, 12:04 am

Yogin2 wrote:4*1.25*.6 = 3 damage, so 3-4 against HI @ night.
2-4 against HI @ all other times.
My mistake. I did the math with 30% not 40% resistance. I'll change that.

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Post by Xandria » July 6th, 2006, 6:06 am

I'd like to add that the humble thief can be of use against the orky badness - he can aid you well because he is strong when they are, and even by day, his backstab hurts. Especially against assassins, his strikes do 13-3 or so by night, with double backstab a sure kill, plus, they can plug any hex like the footpad. And, they're cheap like pop songs :P
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » July 6th, 2006, 8:32 pm

Xandria wrote:and even by day, [the thief's] backstab hurts.
Against a typical unit, the backstab does 6-3 during the day, which is pretty pathetic, because it's less than your typical melee unit can do even with no special abilities.
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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by Wesnothian » May 8th, 2008, 9:41 am

Regarding your ''Knalgans VS Rebels'' section, you said you shouldn't recruit Footpads if playing against Rebels,
what's the reason? You should name the reasons so some of us can actually know why not to recruit Footpads against Rebels, it's kind of common sense. :|
Last edited by Wesnothian on May 8th, 2008, 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by Sombra » May 8th, 2008, 10:27 am

Wesnothian wrote:Regarding your ''Knalgangs VS Rebels'' section, you said you shouldn't recruit Footpads if playin against Rebels,
what's the reason? You should name the reasons so some of us can actually know why not to recruit Footpads against Rebels, it's kind of common sense. :|
Simply they are kind of weak against some of the common rebel units: Wose, mages, fighters, archers. They all are kind of good footpad killers. The poacher works better to deny the rebels the woods and swamps.

Still the footpad is usefull as a fast scout and avillage taker but not as good as for example against undead.

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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by Wesnothian » May 8th, 2008, 10:32 am

Sombra wrote:
Wesnothian wrote:Regarding your ''Knalgangs VS Rebels'' section, you said you shouldn't recruit Footpads if playin against Rebels,
what's the reason? You should name the reasons so some of us can actually know why not to recruit Footpads against Rebels, it's kind of common sense. :|
Simply they are kind of weak against some of the common rebel units: Wose, mages, fighters, archers. They all are kind of good footpad killers. The poacher works better to deny the rebels the woods and swamps.

Still the footpad is usefull as a fast scout and avillage taker but not as good as for example against undead.
Basically you need them to capture villages and scout, but after that all is done, you still have your Footpad, and you can atleast use him, rather then let him stay back or send him to his doom (afterall, you want to win right?). So after my Footpad did his job, I use him on my frontline and attack together with my other Outlaw units at night. I usually attack with the Footpad as a last option, if an enemy unit got lucky of all my attacks, I will use my Footpad. They are also pretty decent at night harrying Woses with its ranged attacks, but mostly I use them as a last resort, as my main forces will try to gain the XP and kills, but if an enemy unit gets lucky and only gots 1 HP left or so, I will use my Footpad.
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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by anakayub » May 8th, 2008, 10:45 am

Regarding your ''Knalgans VS Rebels'' section, you said you shouldn't recruit Footpads if playing against Rebels,
what's the reason? You should name the reasons so some of us can actually know why not to recruit Footpads against Rebels, it's kind of common sense.
Mainly because they don't really serve any particular offensive function. Poachers are more useful as it can deliver more range damage, and thieves are useful for their backstabbing blade (no resistances throughout the Rebels faction). Of course when playing a random MP game you might have gotten a footpad, and it's still useful for its scouting uses. But when you need an outlaw after that, consider a poacher/thief according to your needs, especially when you already have a gryphon scouting that side of the map.

That's how I interpret it. Just remember to read the whole thread, as there is a good discussion on outlaws in the Knalgan faction.

EDIT: Aw, 2 replies already? I'm slow. Of course common sense says that you use the footpad if there's 1 hex left to make a kill and there are no other units left. Just remember that harrying woses with impact (or pierce for that matter) is not really effective, and should be used as a mere opportunistic measure rather than the aim of having a poacher/footpad.
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Re: How to play Knalgans

Post by Wesnothian » May 8th, 2008, 11:35 am

What if you are closing in your enemy leader with your troops, but need backup to finish the enemy, and you have no gold to buy a Gryphon, but you can buy a Footpad which is fastest after the Gryphon, so the Footpad can get very fast to your main troops to support, but afcourse this situation has to be in a way that you really need a mobile unit, a fast unit quickly to just fit in your frontline. Afcourse you can retreat with your front and wait for real combat units come and support, but sometimes you just have to have a mobile unit to get to the frontline quickly, and if you don't have Gold for a Gryphon, I'd get a Footpad, mostly at these situation I'm certain that I'm winning since I'm closing the leader in, and buying just a quick mobile unit might help if the enemy gets very lucky or something, but these situation is highly unlikely.
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