When are Javelineers useful?

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Re: When are Javelineers useful?

Post by otzenpunk »

patience_reloaded wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 1:29 pm
Not-so-fancy skills like steadfast with low blade and impact resistances or an additional move shouldn't break a campaign too much though.
Maybe, maybe not. But why? In your last contribution you were concerned, that the lvl3 javelineer would be too much better than the ranger, and now you want to make the lvl3 javelineer even better, by giving him an additional skill and some more resistances? I just don't see any reason for this. It's pretty normal for units to not get additional special abilities while progressing, except more hitpoints, more damage, etc.

See for example the Saurian Skirmisher->Saurian Flanker. It's just more damage, more hitpoints and an additional movement point. The same with the Elvish Hero line, or the Orcish Archer, the Ghost/Wraith line, Skeletons, Skeleton Archers, Mermen Spearmen, Loyalist Bowmen,…

In fact, even an additonal movement point probably wouldn't really be necessary, although I like the idea. Steadfast on the other side doesn't really match the javelineer's appearance in my opinion, as he's a pretty fragile unit with even less hitpoints than the lvl2 longbowman.
About the attack damages: It turns out that we have quite a big window for discussions here, depending on the targeted role of the lv3 Javelineer. Once the role has been figured out precisely, we can compare him to other balanced units with similar or same role(s).
Actually, the window is quite small. The lvl2 javelineer has got 8x3 melee. It doesn't make sense to leave this the same when leveling up, and even the lvl3 Master Bowman, in comparison, has got 8x3 as well, (although no first-strike). So the lvl3 javelineer must deal significantly more damage than this, to justify choosing this path, or it's just not worth it and it's better to develop Master Bowmen instead, and keep leveling spearmen into pikemen or swordsmen.

On the other hand, halberdiers have just got 15x3 pierce damage (and an additional, but even weaker blade attack). So the javelineer has to stay significantly lower than that with his melee attack, or Pikemen would completely lose their legitimation, because why would you sacrifice your ranged attack, when you could get both? In the end I don't see any possibility here except 10x3 or 11x3.

The same considerations apply to the ranged attack. If it's too strong, it devalues the pikemen/halberdiers, if it's too weak, it discourages from developing javelineers at all, because the combination of halberdiers/master bowmen is so much better. So I think the ranged damage must become about the same magnitude as with the melee attack, with slightly more flexibility regarding if you stay with 2 strikes, but considerately stronger, or if you add another strike and then leave every single one pretty much as they are, because you don't want to get too close to the master bowman ranged attack of 11x4.

I also don't understand, why there has to be a special role now. The role is simply "do what spearmen do, but better, with a slightly more concentration on ranged capabilities". It's the player's duty to find out what to do with them, but I already made some suggestions before:
Tactically they would be able to better reach important defensive positions, either to fill gaps created by unexpected losses somewhere else in the frontline, or to advance in front of the army to occupy villages or important mountain or forest tiles, and defend them until the arrival of the main force.

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Re: When are Javelineers useful?

Post by revolting_peasant »

patience_reloaded wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 1:29 pm
- Orcish Nightblade
Nitpick: That's rarely/never available as an advancement from Orcish Slayer.

More significantly, though, I think you're putting too much emphasis on _only_ the damage stats in choosing Javelineers; remember HP, resistance and movement are also significant.

Now, the Javelineer is/should be better armored than a Bowman of the same level, and that should be true for L3 as well. Not sure about how their HP should compare though. Probably, the L3 Javelineer should have similar-or-a bit more HP than the Bowman and much less than the Halbardier.

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Re: When are Javelineers useful?

Post by shevegen »

I think they are ok. They are not as good as the other advancements I think,
but from what I remember playing with them, they are quick to level up
and fairly cheap then. I view them as a bit cheap and expendable level
2 units. Don't even care much when they die.

Elvish Rangers is my favourite unit from the standard ones, often due
to ambush in forests, but also because it has more hitpoints than the
sniper. The elvish fighter is also ok.

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