Mechanical's art

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ghype
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ghype »

These nagas look very ... interesting. While they are drawn very nicely, they kind of resemble more with sea horses then nagas or anything else I know from wesnoth.

But i don't want to get too critical about the concept before you posted more of them.
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ForestDragon
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ForestDragon »

ghype wrote: December 5th, 2020, 3:25 pm These nagas look very ... interesting. While they are drawn very nicely, they kind of resemble more with sea horses then nagas or anything else I know from wesnoth.
Well, they are desert nagas, and aren't quite like their water-dwelling counterparts.
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ghype
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ghype »

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ForestDragon
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ForestDragon »

ghype wrote: December 5th, 2020, 6:15 pm what happened to the sandy nagas?

Image
https://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=73256
We decided to take a different approach this time
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Hejnewar
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Hejnewar »

Bull Tumen look really good, I dont think that they would fit mainline (mainline factions look natural in almost any environment, this one.. I dont think it would, also it probably will have crazy mechanics and abilities) but for UMC this quality is really nice.

"Nagas" - they would collapse under their body weight when trying to strike something, they would probably deal more damage by falling on the enemy than by actually striking them. :P (And they look wormy in my opinion.)
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ForestDragon
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:10 pm I dont think that they would fit mainline (mainline factions look natural in almost any environment, this one.. I dont think it would
Maybe so, however, UMC doesn't need to look like mainline to be successful (just look at archaic era for example, doofus's artstyle isn't exactly mainline-like either, but that in my opinion is part of the appeal. After all, would people who install UMC really be looking for a slightly reskinned mainline experience? I kinda doubt that. :P)
Hejnewar wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:10 pmalso it probably will have crazy mechanics and abilities)
Seems your intuition is pretty good when it comes to UMC, you are correct :) Though unlike our previous era, we decided to dial back on the rightclick menus (and other stuff impossible for AI to use), while still keeping it fresh and unique.
Hejnewar wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:10 pm but for UMC this quality is really nice.
I agree. In my opinion, Mechanical is one of the best artists in the wesnoth community (on the same level as inferno8 and doofus).
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Hejnewar »

ForestDragon wrote: December 6th, 2020, 7:54 am Maybe so, however, UMC doesn't need to look like mainline to be successful (just look at archaic era for example, doofus's artstyle isn't exactly mainline-like either, but that in my opinion is part of the appeal. After all, would people who install UMC really be looking for a slightly reskinned mainline experience? I kinda doubt that. :P)
I was refering to earlier ghype post actually about using them in mainline.

Seems your intuition is pretty good when it comes to UMC, you are correct :) Though unlike our previous era, we decided to dial back on the rightclick menus (and other stuff impossible for AI to use), while still keeping it fresh and unique.
"fresh and unique" - :mrgreen: - I somehow think that this means - "almost impossible to balance" :lol: (I know era that had somewhat active mp playerbase but was killed by balance.) I just know you eras a bit. :P
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ForestDragon
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: December 6th, 2020, 1:36 pm I was refering to earlier ghype post actually about using them in mainline.
Fair enough. Mechanical kinda rejected the idea though. We weren't really aiming for mainline anyway.
Hejnewar wrote: December 6th, 2020, 1:36 pm"fresh and unique" - :mrgreen: - I somehow think that this means - "almost impossible to balance" :lol: (I know era that had somewhat active mp playerbase but was killed by balance.) I just know you eras a bit. :P
Well, best not to jump to conclusions until you actually tried the era :) (the beta should be out sometime either late-December, or some time in January)
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Hejnewar »

Excuse me but I will. I have yet to see really well balanced UMC era so try to surprise me. :D
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Mechanical
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Mechanical »

Okay, the ForestDragon has been talking quite a lot about what we're doing. I want to clarify a couple of things about art.

1. I understand that my sprites don't fit into the mainline. But I don't want. I'm not very comfortable drawing in the mainline style. I began to pay less attention to him. My goal now is to draw an era in my own style that will please the eye.

2. About nagas. I understand that they look quite strange against the backdrop of nagas from the mainline. But if you know their lore, everything will become clear. According to the idea, these desert nagas are practically not connected with water, they dig sand well. They live in burrows daubed with clay and set up ambushes buried in the sand. Therefore, they have smoother bodies and stronger muscles. Against this background, the fact that they seemed somewhat wormy to you is even good. However, after becoming part of state X (you will learn about it in era), their role changed, and they became heavy infantry.

3. Why did you think they would fall under their own weight? Are their tails too short? In General, their tails should be much longer, but the sprite size limit does not allow me to depict this.
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: December 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm Excuse me but I will. I have yet to see really well balanced UMC era
True, true.
Hejnewar wrote: December 6th, 2020, 2:23 pmso try to surprise me. :D
Will try.
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Helmet
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Helmet »

Mechanical wrote: December 6th, 2020, 3:11 pm ...My goal now is to draw an era in my own style that will please the eye.
Well, my eyes are pleased. :)

BfW pixel art is an art form with severe constraints on self-expression. It amazes me that you managed to create a distinctive style within those constraints. Keep up the good work!
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Hejnewar
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Hejnewar »

Mechanical wrote: December 6th, 2020, 3:11 pm Okay, the ForestDragon has been talking quite a lot about what we're doing. I want to clarify a couple of things about art.

1. I understand that my sprites don't fit into the mainline. But I don't want. I'm not very comfortable drawing in the mainline style. I began to pay less attention to him. My goal now is to draw an era in my own style that will please the eye.

2. About nagas. I understand that they look quite strange against the backdrop of nagas from the mainline. But if you know their lore, everything will become clear. According to the idea, these desert nagas are practically not connected with water, they dig sand well. They live in burrows daubed with clay and set up ambushes buried in the sand. Therefore, they have smoother bodies and stronger muscles. Against this background, the fact that they seemed somewhat wormy to you is even good. However, after becoming part of state X (you will learn about it in era), their role changed, and they became heavy infantry.

3. Why did you think they would fall under their own weight? Are their tails too short? In General, their tails should be much longer, but the sprite size limit does not allow me to depict this.
2. Then that's good that they have scales like that, but ("smoother bodies and stronger muscles") they look fat (I didnt want to say this but its better to be straight I think) maybe its just perspective.

3. There was once topic - can nagas mine? It turns out that they cant (or are bad at that) because their bodies are bad at supporting movements forward, their center of gravity would shift too far ahead and they would just fall. Add to that weapon that is somewhat heavy, heavy armour and shield. Either it would just collapse or would be able to do only few attacks like that, this would tax muscles a lot no matter how strong you are because you have to stop your own momentum and then retrieve your body from very uncomfortable position (btw. you cant dodge while doing this).

In water its easier to do this because you are mostly submerged and water will help you cancel out your momentum or you can even go underwater but on land? Nope. Actually on land biggest strength of land naga would be ability to have reach longer than expected (because they could fall after attack and still move freely like snake) and ability to dodge while fully on the ground but heavy armour (esp. chainmail because it would catch anything on the ground) and shield pretty much say no to that.

Edit: This is mostly about the weapon because to use it effectively you need to swing it from above your head and use your body weight in order to maximize damage. Swords don't require this that much and you can use them in very close combat that is enabled by your snake body.
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Mechanical
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Mechanical »

Hejnewar wrote: December 6th, 2020, 6:42 pm

2. Then that's good that they have scales like that, but ("smoother bodies and stronger muscles") they look fat (I didnt want to say this but its better to be straight I think) maybe its just perspective.

3. There was once topic - can nagas mine? It turns out that they cant (or are bad at that) because their bodies are bad at supporting movements forward, their center of gravity would shift too far ahead and they would just fall. Add to that weapon that is somewhat heavy, heavy armour and shield. Either it would just collapse or would be able to do only few attacks like that, this would tax muscles a lot no matter how strong you are because you have to stop your own momentum and then retrieve your body from very uncomfortable position (btw. you cant dodge while doing this).

In water its easier to do this because you are mostly submerged and water will help you cancel out your momentum or you can even go underwater but on land? Nope. Actually on land biggest strength of land naga would be ability to have reach longer than expected (because they could fall after attack and still move freely like snake) and ability to dodge while fully on the ground but heavy armour (esp. chainmail because it would catch anything on the ground) and shield pretty much say no to that.

Edit: This is mostly about the weapon because to use it effectively you need to swing it from above your head and use your body weight in order to maximize damage. Swords don't require this that much and you can use them in very close combat that is enabled by your snake body.
Well, you say quite logical things, but I think that they are true only if the proportions of the Naga "in life" are the same as in Wesnoth. But I think that in fact their tails are much longer and thicker (as in the picture for example), this weighs more than the part with the body, so the momentum will not cause the body to fall. Strong back muscles, turning into a powerful tail, should hold the body.

As for my Nagas, I have dressed them in heavy armor because they command disloyal slaves and mercenaries in battle, and the death of a Naga can cause an entire unit to fail. That's why protection is important to them. They themselves rarely engage in battle on the front lines.

Perhaps my Naga tails are too short. I drew it this way because of the Wesnoth style, which involves some simplifications. Hmm, can i try making the tails bigger?

I saw your edit about weapons. Hmm. I gave the Nagas a Mace, because this weapon is often the symbol of the commander. As I said, they rarely engage in close combat. Perhaps you should make the Mace more "decorative"...
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this is how I imagine the actual proportions of the Naga
this is how I imagine the actual proportions of the Naga
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Hejnewar
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Re: Mechanical's art

Post by Hejnewar »

Mechanical wrote: December 6th, 2020, 7:05 pm Well, you say quite logical things, but I think that they are true only if the proportions of the Naga "in life" are the same as in Wesnoth. But I think that in fact their tails are much longer and thicker (as in the picture for example), this weighs more than the part with the body, so the momentum will not cause the body to fall. Strong back muscles, turning into a powerful tail, should hold the body.

Perhaps my Naga tails are too short. I drew it this way because of the Wesnoth style, which involves some simplifications. Hmm, can i try making the tails bigger?

I saw your edit about weapons. Hmm. I gave the Nagas a Mace, because this weapon is often the symbol of the commander. As I said, they rarely engage in close combat. Perhaps you should make the Mace more "decorative"...
"if the proportions of the Naga "in life" are the same as in Wesnoth" - Im only looking at your sprites. Longer tail is not really needed (all lvlups have pretty long looking tails), thicker tail would help more. If proportions are like to this picture then yeah it wouldnt be much of a problem but it only looks natural because its actual human body there and not continuation of naga body. Sudden shrink would look weird probably.

For now I would leave it be, these are not bad by any means (bottom advancement helmet looks smaller than heads of other nagas - only thing). As overseers they can look fatter. :P

As a weapon whip could be considered looking at the fact that they oversee slaves.
As for my Nagas, I have dressed them in heavy armor because they command disloyal slaves and mercenaries in battle, and the death of a Naga can cause an entire unit to fail. That's why protection is important to them. They themselves rarely engage in battle on the front lines.
I know that special ability. ;) I have a hunch how this faction will work. :P
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