Era of Invasions (demons, celests...)

[francophone]

I talk about this Era in an other topic : http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33890

There, this is for the graphics.

So I start with demons.
First the grid of the base units. Please note that the last line is not correct. I changed the look of my demons in armor.

I started portraits. Before going further, I wonder if they are correct. The "horned demon" is supposed to be "cons-diving"? (seen from below), head down.

horned.png (19.54 KiB) Viewed 7271 times

I think using the same design for each level of the double line of hunters (including judge). Only the color change, like pictures 72X72 units.
I also have a character for a campaign that is identical but without fire on blade. And the rest as the judge but the levels 1 to 3. And so again I think using the same drawing for its portraits.

hunter.png (35.8 KiB) Viewed 7271 times

slayer.png (31.59 KiB) Viewed 7271 times

bungler.png (32.26 KiB) Viewed 7271 times

This last for icy/fire bungler and juge.

[francophone]

And the lvl4 :

exterminator.png (34.57 KiB) Viewed 7268 times

Exterminator has the fire in one hand (or blade) and the icy fire in the other. One fire color, the other opposite color.

Note that some of the portraits is really like other. Exterminator is a direct copy of the bunglers, with different arms positions and longer horns.
Is this a problem ?

I do not think do portrait of the archidemon. I have no idea to do different from the exterminator. Moreover, it is mysterious and rare. Maybe I'll do it for the transparent character of the campaign (exterminator green, white fire in the hand and blade without flame). But not for the help.



Some demons have spots or patterns that do not differ in small but give more substance to the portraits.
Some demons are also covered in scars. Particularly the horned (on the torso, especially) and the rabid (on the face and shoulders). Those two have in level 1. Hunters (lvl1) have no scars. The slayers (lvl2) have. And more they advance in level, more they have scars.

But I do not know how I'll draw the scars.

cicatrices.png (2.39 KiB) Viewed 7268 times

??????????

[SFault]

The units in each line are very similar. It is quite hard to distinguish lower level units from higher level units. The bigger level units should be clearly bigger (like in FT-line) and more colorful than the lower level units. You might also want to change the pose and not just add more/longer spikes.

Otherwise I really like the units.

[francophone]

I know ! But...

Initially, I planned a basic design for different levels.
The horned is actually based on level 2, as it is very large.
But it is very difficult thing to come in demons, especially with peaks in the back, in the 72X72 with horns that stretch, etc..
Only the soldier raised at each level (and level 3 beyonds).
The biggest problem is the double line of hunters, and that of the horned (level 3 changes appearance by flank).
Maybe I could make a level 1 horned less red?
For hunters I could change the position. Take for example the portraits. They would be more different. But this difference did not indicate the level.
??

For cold demons terrestrial (both above), is there enough contrast?
And then the two in flight position?



It lacks images of units. Flying units that are put by default, also have an image to movement. The horned is just a little higher (detached from its shadow).
So the set of images of the line of hunters. Surrounded by red: images for fire attacks. Cyan: images for icy fire attacks. (Units Level 4 and 5 combine the two bunglers attacks.)

K0, etc. is Klow: A character for a campaign. It has a melee attack with "plague".
So, attack icons for hunters and Klow.

grid attacks hunters.png (41.68 KiB) Viewed 7164 times

I also have another character. A single image in fact, because it takes the form than sly devil who then evolves deceitfull then necrophage.

grid slyer.png (29.29 KiB) Viewed 7164 times

I have not yet made ​​the Warlord that evolves from the warrior.
And as I put a lot of pictures, I will present images of soldier, later, when I also got that of the warlord.

[francophone]

I upgraded lines (changed lvl2 and 3) of the scout and horned.

For horned, I gave up the horns on the shoulders, the lvl2. It's really too problematic.
As a result, this distinctive element (which was difficult to see) between lvl1 and lvl2 disappears.

edit :

I just did a test on level 2 of the demon burn. I think it is sufficiently distinct from level 1. Is not it? But do not bother me to continue on this path if it does not fit.
For level three, I plan to thicken again. But is it going to be enough?
lv1 not changed and new lvl2 :

burn.png (4.37 KiB) Viewed 7113 times

fire.png (4.92 KiB) Viewed 7113 times

[francophone]

I made some corrections, improvements.
It lacks the double line of hunters (where there is the most need to differentiate the levels).

[francophone]

I have long left in abeyance Wesnoth but I'm given.
Behind mods demons :

less some attack icon

I advanced on celests : soon

edit : now

[homunculus]

You seem to be in need of some comments, I guess.

1. Although you seem to get few crits yourself, there are numerous crits about similar issues in other threads, like the ever repetitive pure black lines thing. Including the lines in the middle of the sprite that seem to force the stiff looking body on all your soulsucker units.
Like this spartan by Vranca vs the suggestion by Blarumyrran:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 02#p495702
Myself I also believe in trying to get the highlights right and letting the viewer's brain fill in the flat shadows as much as I can pull it off, but my advice on shading should be taken with a grain of salt as I am somewhat confused about the recent Wesnoth shading myself.
Nevertheless the unarmored soulsuckers seem to lack a highlight on the body.
2. What are your inspirations and what style are you aiming for?
Some of the sprites (soulsucker and hunter line) look very stiff and in my personal opinion more boring that way. Compared to, say, the aragwaith sprites (which might be bit complicated for the eye to interpret, but nevertheless they do look rather flowing and more interesting that way):

My own secret goal is to aim for something like this, though, so my opinion here is biased and therefore this "more flowing" suggestion might not be suitable for you:

3. You seem to be drawing elongated bodies (which does not look correct) like, say, the humanoid sprites in IftU:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... &start=255
Do you have someting against the style of IftU demon sprites? The IftU demon sprites are not finalized as far as I know and there could be some improvements to those in the future, but what about trying to reuse them and expand this faction?
The style seems to be somewhat similar, although not exactly the same.

As you can see, it is bit hard to crit without understanding your opinions about all those questions.
All in all, it is also hard to predict what the final quality of your sprites would be if you put more effort in trying to make a few sprites as perfect as you can get, as some of your material looks quite promising in my opinion at least.

[francophone]

Thank you for taking the time to comment my work.
Unfortunately, I have not succeded in understand what you wrote. Sorry I'm really bad in English.
The problem with soulsuckers is that they are too stiff ?
I told them vonlontairement given a body a little barrel compared to other demons. To make them look different. Too straight? too vertical?


"Nevertheless the unarmored soulsuckers seem to lack a highlight on the body."
I did not notice. Yes, this is a problem of contrast between the highlight and the base color. Besides, my sly demons have the same problem.
I use too automatically hightlights and shadows 50% lighter or darker than base color. So that can missed of contrast with the hightlights on the lightcolor or shadows on the dark.

"What are your inspirations and what style are you aiming for?"
I do not really have a reference or model. My style is just my style. I know say that does not make much progress on the issue.

"Some of the sprites (soulsucker and hunter line) look very stiff and in my personal opinion more boring that way."
You say that the images lack of fluidity? Or is it the evolution the problem?
Yes, evolution is problematic, especially for hunters (especially as they go from lvl 1 to 5). For the simple reason that by satisfying the first image and above all through idleness of all redraw, I did not.

"You seem to be drawing elongated bodies (which does not look correct) like, say, the humanoid sprites in IftU: "
What ? I don't think.
What? I do not think.
Have you looked at my celestial? I took the archer and his evolution as a reference. I do not think they are elongated.
My demons are big (and wide for that matter).

"Do you have someting against the style of IftU demon sprites? "
No. But I do something else. They are very different. I have also still other versions of demons again very different. The word demon can refer to very different creatures. And I think we should leave it open to varying versions (for the look as for the rest).

At present, I do not intend to resume work on the drawings of demons. I try to have a result that can play both factions.
I mostly need attack icons and projectiles or attack animation (and one nose) immediately.
If I want pofiner the result, I should absolutely draw new units without content myself with tracing on the lower level unit.

Cris

[homunculus]

Of course I second the earlier crit by SFault that the units do not look different enough.
But what I meant by stiff was more about the pose.
Stiff like tense, or not relaxed.
That makes them look as if they feel uncomfortable.
There is something about the legs and the body, and the position of the head in the soulsuckers, hunters and soldiers that makes them look stiff.
The leg position is somewhat better than the human mainline units in my opinion, maybe the problem starts at the hips that are straight towards the viewer.
The soulsuckers also have very small and feeble arms, while hunters have massive arms.
The elbows of the hunters seem to be very hard pressed against the sides, which is another stiff looking pose.
The other demon poses seem way better.
I hope that clarifies the word 'stiff'.

The celestial linework (except being black) seems very nice, as far as I can tell.
Some of the arms are really tiny.
Some units might have some light on the belly, a midtone at least.
Well, whatever, if you are focusing more on getting the faction playable rather than the quality of the sprites right now, nitpicking on some sloppy shading here and there might be useless.

offtopic:
Now there is something else that attracts attention.
All the demons are male and all the celestials are female.
There might be some serious tension going on.
Any plans on doing a demon with a whip and some chains and a latex mask?
Very appropriate in springtime.

[francophone]

"But what I meant by stiff was more about the pose.
(...)I hope that clarifies the word 'stiff'."
Yes I understand. And I quite agree with this remark. Even if I had not necessarily done before.

"The soulsuckers also have very small and feeble arms, while hunters have massive arms."
Is it a problem ?

"The elbows of the hunters seem to be very hard pressed against the sides, which is another stiff looking pose."
Yes, but I don't know why.

Your comments make me want to redraw the demons at a higher level.
Although my priority is to draw the line of celest healers and projectiles (and perhaps one or two missile animations), I want to give it a try.
For hunters I have a idea, which is that of portrait that I show above.
Thus, the fact that the real hunter (lvl1) seems a little nervous about his weapon, is not necessarily a problem. Then it will pick up more proudly, held his weapon with one hand or with a kind of casualness. In my ideas of portraits, one can see that bunglers smile, while the hunters are tense.
For soulsuckers in particular, I will increase their characteristics as they evolve. Make them less human or less average. The souldevorer will emaciated arms and legs and a large chest, giving it a more morbid aspect as inhuman skeleton, and (soon lvl 1?) I plan marked soulsuckers size.

"Some units might have some light on the belly, a midtone at least.
Well, whatever, if you are focusing more on getting the faction playable rather than the quality of the sprites right now, nitpicking on some sloppy shading here and there might be useless."
It is interesting for the time I will take these drawings. And it makes me also want to resume at the earliest.
And then I find important in shading, more than the details. You asked me my style: I prefer a good impression of volume than specific details. I like net rather than aliasing pictures. I like the windsong in http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.6/C/era_EOM_e8.html.

"All the demons are male and all the celestials are female."
I have not explained it here: celests are bisexed and demons are asexed.
Celests are sometimes bearded. Lack healers who are most, but we can already see with warden : FR3.
Demons reproduce by a form of parthenogenesis when they are strong enough. Some can contamine other creatures and do their demons (plague). All demons are primarily lvl0 that can evolve to any form of demon.

And I expected a faction of hybrid demon / Celest. The celests often face the demons. Therefore, they are particularly likely to be converted (not sexually!!). But some resist and survive. They population enter by any of the two major factions.

[homunculus]

"The soulsuckers also have very small and feeble arms, while hunters have massive arms."
Is it a problem ?

well, if people notice that half of your celestials apparently have one hand almost twice as long as the other hand, you can imagine the grins.
and they will not think anything like 'happens to the best', but rather they will be much more elaborate in their own mind than the critique they tell you, because they also like to think of themselves as polite.
something like that, lol.

and, once they notice a flaw, they will notice it more easily next time, and that is a practical concern about graphics disturbing gameplay, as far as i understand it.
better not to attract attention with unexpected body proportions.

some more offtopic:

And I expected a faction of hybrid demon / Celest. The celests often face the demons. Therefore, they are particularly likely to be converted (not sexually!!). But some resist and survive. They population enter by any of the two major factions.

i am glad i wrote that offtopic joke attempt earlier : )

converting celestials into mindless slaves: fetish about change of perception of morale and of what is good, dependent on state of mind.
inflicting brutal and ugly wounds with an axe or beating people to pulp with a mace: an aggression fantasy.
unit called judge: reminds of the old guy in the "saw" movie where accusation for bad choices was one of the excitement-builders.
etc.

practice with aggression fantasies increases competence, and then people might end up noticing and resolving the underlying tensions, and then aggression also looses appeal.
some of your demons seem to be suitable for performing one aggression fantasy or another, and that is excellent and deep, keep it up : )

i guess i better stop here, because some people might feel uncomfortable with all that, and as a compassionate person i understand how it might be a lot to digest, and some mods might be frowning somewhere in the shadows.
i didn't say anything that should be censored, did i?
just common formal speech.

[francophone]

Ok, but I think giving at demons (especially high lvl) proportions less human and more different between demons.
But maybe, soulsucker lvl1 will be more normal.



I have a draft of my missing lvl1 celest. But I feel that it is not very good.
What do you think about it ?

guardian.png (627 Bytes) Viewed 6535 times

[francophone]

And what about this version of soulcollector (lvl 3) ?

soulcollector 2.png (3.83 KiB) Viewed 6504 times

[homunculus]

i looked at the windsong that you referenced and our style preferences are vastly different, and i don't want to convince you out of what is natural for you.

the last pose of the demon looks more relaxed, but not quite correct.
for poses, myself i use stick figures very similar to what the first climbing skeleton sketches were in battlestar's thread.
except if i take it a step further than the sticks, i draw the ribcage, not the whole body.
the shape of the ribcage can be quite tricky, but the rest of the stick figure is easier to start with, you might want to try it.
myself i first tried to redraw some relaxed anime poses with weight on one leg, paying attention the the shoulders and hips, and then spine curve, then rib cage, and i think it was a good idea to start from there.