My analysis of humanoid unit resistances/armor/HP

Discussion among members of the development team.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
JW
Posts: 5046
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW » January 29th, 2006, 12:47 am

Actually that idea came to me somewhat as well. I was thinking more like units heal more in villages per turn as they level up. Something like this would probably work: 8, 12, 16. Poison could stay the same to represent an overall increase in resiliance. This may also be appropriate for regeneration.

Chris Byler
Posts: 99
Joined: April 14th, 2005, 2:32 pm
Location: Blacksburg, VA, USA

Post by Chris Byler » January 29th, 2006, 6:53 am

I don't think it would be a good idea to increase the max healing rate. It takes a lot of effort and possibly a lot of dangerous counterattacks to beat a level 3 unit half to death, you should at least take it out of action for a while even if it got away.

On the other hand I definitely agree with the overall point of the thread - like many, I was (still am, really) baffled at how a thief, a footpad and a fencer can have *less* resistance to physical damage than a mage. Being a footpad or a fencer implies a certain familiarity with and willingness to engage in physical violence, which mages are known for disdaining.

Regardless of how you justify it in realism terms (or even whether or not you attempt to do so), what resistance *really is* can be defined by its effects: it's something that makes you take less damage from a given hit. If mages are assumed to be totally unprotected, how can you be *worse* than totally unprotected? (Aside from being cold-blooded, made of wood, etc.) If mages aren't totally unprotected and elusivefoots are, what exactly are mages wearing or doing to make attacks hit them no harder than a spearman?

Attack damages are pretty high already in relation to unit HP, I think negative resists should be reserved for things with an unusual physiology that's especially susceptible (woses, drakes, saurians, skeletons), holy vs. undead, a few exceptionally unworldly and frail units like the shyde, and possibly mounted units (although I don't see much logic behind it, it does sort of make sense in terms of the tactical variety it promotes).

Mustelid
Posts: 73
Joined: December 20th, 2005, 8:27 am
Contact:

Post by Mustelid » January 29th, 2006, 2:13 pm

I agree that a faster healing rate for all > lvl1 units is undesirable, unless the difference was only a hitpoint or two. An 8/12/16 system would require massive rebalancing of campaigns; the AI is generally stupid about healing, so it'd mean a big rebalancing of most campaigns to make the later levels progressively harder. I mean, think of all those cave-crawls with a handful of 3rd-level units and limited villages, having to constantly recycle your troops because of that frickin' 30% defence on cave floor... how much easier would those be with double-speed healing?

It'd work well as an ability or even a trait, though.

I think the long time it takes a high-level unit to get back to full health presents good tactical challenges - if you throw your Iron Mauler about like he's invincible, you'll pay for it later. It can be rationalised, if you feel the need to - 'Sproggins the Thief is such a wuss that after a couple of flesh wounds he needs to be carried off the battlefield in a stretcher. Ironpants the Dwarvish Arcanister can keep fighting with half a dozen arrows in his vital organs and one leg missing. Flesh wounds tend to recover faster.'

theCAS
Posts: 50
Joined: August 24th, 2004, 4:26 pm

Post by theCAS » January 29th, 2006, 3:02 pm

JW wrote:Actually that idea came to me somewhat as well. I was thinking more like units heal more in villages per turn as they level up. Something like this would probably work: 8, 12, 16. Poison could stay the same to represent an overall increase in resiliance. This may also be appropriate for regeneration.
Mmh, I was thinking about a more flexible system:

Eg.
Human
healing_village: +8HP
healing_rest: +2HP
healing_standard (each turn): +0HP
healing_cap(max hp gain per turn): 8HP

Troll
healing_village: +16HP
healing_rest: +0HP
healing_standard: +8HP, cure (regeneration is no longer an hardcoded ability, cure means it overcomes poison effects)
healing_cap: 16HP

Skeleton
healing_village: +1HP
healing_rest: +0HP
healing_standard: +0HP, cure (poison immunity)
healing_cap: 4HP (for magic healing)

Walking Corpse
healing_village: +1HP
healing_rest: +0HP
healing_standard: -1HP, cure (poison immunity & rotting corpse ;) )
healing_cap: 4HP

This open the paths for many interesting units.

Duke Guillermo
Posts: 127
Joined: October 25th, 2005, 9:32 pm

Post by Duke Guillermo » January 30th, 2006, 9:22 pm

Becephalus couldn't be more right.

HP - The amount of damage a unit can sustain.
Resistance - What %age of a particular type of damage is incurred by the unit.
Defence - Chance to hit a unit in a particular terrain.

Using these definitions of HP, Resistance, and Defence, it doesn't make sense that a mage has the same resistance to blade as a spearman does. Resistances, defences, and HP should be standardized as Becephalus suggested because it makes more sense and would add to the diversity of characters (it would really feel like spearmen were wearing armour)

However, in order to implement this suggestion Becephalus, or someone who feels passionately about the issue, has to rebalance the whole system. If someone is willing to do that I would certainly support them in their endeavor and would hope that the suggestion be implemented.
In summation, you're wrong.

Noy
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Post by Noy » February 28th, 2006, 10:29 am

I'm moving this to the developer's forum because I think its something that has real potential.

User avatar
Maeglin Dubh
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 1154
Joined: November 16th, 2005, 8:38 pm
Location: Valley of the Shadow of Death
Contact:

Post by Maeglin Dubh » February 28th, 2006, 2:13 pm

As a whole new system of unit creation, or as an addon/fork of the existing system? If this is implemented, it will result in -major- unit overhauls across the board...

Darth Fool
Retired Developer
Posts: 2633
Joined: March 22nd, 2004, 11:22 pm
Location: An Earl's Roadstead

Post by Darth Fool » February 28th, 2006, 2:52 pm

I think that it is a bad idead to have villages give different healing depending on the unit type. The quoted desired effect can already be achieved by lowering the unit's HP and raising its resistances.

Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1539
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Post by Soliton » February 28th, 2006, 4:44 pm

Darth Fool wrote:I think that it is a bad idead to have villages give different healing depending on the unit type. The quoted desired effect can already be achieved by lowering the unit's HP and raising its resistances.
Certainly.
I'm pretty sure Noy was refering to the original proposal by Becephalus which is a good idea.

It's quite clearly a rather complex change so I'm not very intrigued to work on it right away but anyone is welcome to go further on implementing this and present the results here. (or reach a mp dev in any other way)
Ideally as a diff. :P
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

Post Reply