In regards to flying units:

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JW
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Post by JW » February 3rd, 2006, 3:34 pm

Doc:
why is the gryphon at level 1 so powerful, but the level 2 not (relatively)?

Also, why is a gryphons defense 50% on all terrains if it's not flying while being attacked? It seems rather big so you think it would be easier to hit like a drake...

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Post by turin » February 3rd, 2006, 6:37 pm

I think slightly more interesting defences (60% on hills, 40% on all water terrains and in cave) would be interesting, but I also think that the basically constant defence of the gryphon is kind of important... it'd be best to not give them <=30% or >=70% in any terrains.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson » February 4th, 2006, 4:18 pm

JW, about the L1> L2 gryphon upgrade:

That's actually something that I've been thinking about for some time.
We recently (a few days ago) committed a change that made the L2 gryphon 15-2.

We don't want to make it too much better though, and this is largely due to the amplification effect of its massive movement (which increases by 2).

And as for it being difficult to hit-

Consider that its body is essentially that of a lion, and is likely gifted with all of the speed, power and agility of the "big cat" family. Add to that the ability to move on a vertical axis, and the potential for the wings to be used to enhance dodging/movement (a leap to the side, supplemented with a wing-push, would be very fast indeed). Add to that the godlike vision and senses of an eagle, and you have a unit that would surely be difficult to land a solid blow on, regardless of its somewhat larger size.
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JW
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Post by JW » February 4th, 2006, 4:31 pm

Doc Paterson wrote: And as for it being difficult to hit-

Consider that its body is essentially that of a lion, and is likely gifted with all of the speed, power and agility of the "big cat" family. Add to that the ability to move on a vertical axis, and the potential for the wings to be used to enhance dodging/movement (a leap to the side, supplemented with a wing-push, would be very fast indeed). Add to that the godlike vision and senses of an eagle, and you have a unit that would surely be difficult to land a solid blow on, regardless of its somewhat larger size.
The sprite doesn't sell me on that idea. :p

Also, I'm glad to hear about the upgrade. I always hated doubling my opponents xp for +2 movement. I probably still will, but the extra +1dmg will be a little nicer. I always assumed the lvl2 was kindof a trade-off for having such a good lvl1 unit. That and it's massive recruit cost.

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Post by Doc Paterson » February 5th, 2006, 12:49 am

JW wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote: And as for it being difficult to hit-

Consider that its body is essentially that of a lion, and is likely gifted with all of the speed, power and agility of the "big cat" family. Add to that the ability to move on a vertical axis, and the potential for the wings to be used to enhance dodging/movement (a leap to the side, supplemented with a wing-push, would be very fast indeed). Add to that the godlike vision and senses of an eagle, and you have a unit that would surely be difficult to land a solid blow on, regardless of its somewhat larger size.
The sprite doesn't sell me on that idea. :p
I hear you on that, my brother. 8)

Chubby-Chicken Gryphon isn't exactly my cup of tea either.

Nevertheless, I think the core concept of what a gryphon is supposed to be is represented pretty well, stat-wise.

As for the L2 gryphon, I'm now content with its power-level....You have to remember that in addition to the +2 movement, the HP increase is really quite large.
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Post by Chris Byler » February 7th, 2006, 7:12 am

I don't know. Flying units and particularly gryphons seem to me to be very strong at the moment - they have extraordinary mobility even compared to units that are pretty weak in exchange for their mobility (like elvish scouts), above average defense nearly everwhere, and on top of that gryphons still have a strong attack for their level and plenty of hp. The ability to use their fast movement to concentrate a lot of force at any desired place and time and/or flank and surround units is very powerful, and the ability to occupy one or two bad defensive terrain spots with flyers while putting your conventional units on better terrain can be quite strong too. I think any general improvement to flyers would probably make them too good.

Changing their defenses to be something like +10% vs melee, -10% vs ranged would be interesting, but possibly too powerful - retaliation against them is always melee, and they have extraordinary ability to be the attacker in most of their fights and to fight only the units they choose to fight.

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Post by Sangel » February 7th, 2006, 8:28 pm

I very much like Dave's idea, and have put some thought into it. I would propose the following ability text:
Flying
When defending, this unit has at least 60% defence against melee attacks, regardless of terrain.
This text would offer a few advantages:
1. Magical attacks could easily be interpreted as being "overriding", as this refers to defence rather than chance to hit.
2. It would apply on defence only, lessening a possibility huge advantage.
3. The griffon could still have varying defence ratings on different terrain- I'd suggest something like 30% on grassland and 60% on mountains. These defences would apply when it attacks (so you still have to choose terrain wisely) and when attacked by ranged attackers (so a griffon can still seek shelter on a mountain peak).

We would also have to put some thought into what other units would have this ability. Vampire Bats seem a prime possibility - how would this affect Undead balance?
Would ghosts have it, or do they "float"? The Shyde "floats", right?

All in all, I believe that this would add considerable variety to the use of griffons, which are presently, well, a little dull to play with, even if they are quite powerful.
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