Discussion of changes to slow?

[Cuyo Quiz]

I have broken my brain thinking about the modulation thing, and i think that it should go as:

Slow: Halve movement.
Weaken: Halve damage.
Bind: Remove ZoC, can't attack.
Stun: Can't move.
Daze: Losses an attack.
Hinder: Reorder attacks.

About the Fury ability, IIRC, letting one unit make all of his attacks before the defender, either as an ability or an effect was considered too much. It may be coded, but right now i think the discussion is more about modular effects.

The other issue is about duration. I would suggest that all effects have the same duration, so when the effects are combined, all would end at the same time. As all effects right now last until the end of the next turn, maybe we should keep that.

Thus ends my essay on modular effects. Thank you for your patience.

[Sapient]

I have broken my brain thinking about the modulation thing, and i think that it should go as...

Bravo! I totally agree with what Cuy said. Although I still think enfeeble sounds better than weaken (as it will apply to magical not just physical attacks).

[turin]

Remember, attack specials currently cannot be combined (only one special per attack), so it wouldn't make sense to split entangle just yet if you intend to allow units to use more than one of those effects on one attack. Until we can have multiple, we should IMHO leave it as-is.

[ott]

we should IMHO leave it as-is.

As-is in 1.0.2, or as-is in trunk? 1.0.2 has "slow-on-attack halves movement rate of defender until end of defending unit's next turn, and reduces defender's attacks by one (with a minimum of 1) until end of defending unit's next turn; slow-on-defend reduces attacker's attacks by one in current skirmish only" while trunk has "slow-on-attack halves movement rate of defender until end of defending unit's next turn, and reorders defender's attacks until end of defending unit's next turn; slow-on-defend reorders attacker's attacks in current skirmish only".

[JW]

Two things could happen regarding attack effects in the future:
a) effects are broken down and named by their most basic of effects
b) effects are grouped and named appropriately as need arises (current system)

Another choice of two:
a) Leave only one effect per attack (current system)
b) allow several effects per attack - this would allow combinations such as Poison / Slow, a combination I believe could be quite useful and appropriate in an upgraded assassin unit.

So to get more compounded effects attatched to attacks either
a) effects must be grouped, named, and attatched whenever a certain need arises (e.g. Poison + Slow = Toxin)
b) compound effects can be attatched to a single attack by their familiar names (e.g. Poison, Slow)
or c) compounded effects simply won't happen (current system, although "Slow" is the lone exception.)

[Sapient]

we should IMHO leave it as-is.

As-is in 1.0.2, or as-is in trunk?

Am I the only one who thinks trunk is decreasing the usefulness of slow? The hinder effect, to quote Cuyo's list, just doesn't seem equal to me.

The main complaint I see with 1.0.2 slow is that it doesn't affect "one shot wonders," such as the thunderer or rocklobber. That doesn't really seem like such a big loss of general utility, in my opinion. If this is truly the crux of the problem, wouldn't it be better to reduce 1 attack to zero (which was my earlier suggestion...)?

[/i]

[tapik]

So, guys, what was the reason? The 1.1 is planned, we need to translate it and we don't know what the slow currenlty is

And my opinion about the originally proposed "new" slow? It IMHO doesn't make sence.
1) If it should be used for catching escaping units, it should be used by well-defenced unit, because it MUST by used in the first line.
2) If it should be used to let my wounded units go, it ALSO should be used by well-defenced unit, because my wounded units were wounded. And they are escaping before what? Their fear? No, before powerful units!
3) If it should be used on denence, it should be used by well-powered enemy - to let the enemy kill before it kill myself.

I thought the slow was given to shamans to let them survive ranged (mainly magical in woods) attacks. Am I right?

I prefer old-style cumulative slow which requires help of any other unit - to attack the allied unit to remove the roots/webs. I think the attack could have a 100%probability with root/web of one HP

And another think: add a command-line parameter to change the behavior of the slow to check new ones in the real games and compare them. And let the old style as a default. It is a great change, the same as making fireballs poisoning the enemy by 8 per turn with halfing damage.

[Sapient]

Reducing someone's movement for one turn is not IMHO that useful, no matter who you give the ability to. The only situation I can imagine actually wanting to reduce someone's movement is if I am fighting against a lone skirmisher/scout and want to make sure I can finish it off next turn.

And as for the shamans casting slow to reduce attack numbers: it makes total sense. Why? Because it reduces the damage their allies will take against a powerful opponent. That is a fitting ability for a protector/healer. Mind you, any "powerful opponent" is probably going to survive several attacks, so if you only are able to reorder his attacks, that is small consolation (and I'd probably rather keep my shaman in the back row).

I think what you are looking for is a whole different animal.

[tapik]

Reducing someone's movement for one turn is not IMHO that useful, no matter who you give the ability to. The only situation I can imagine actually wanting to reduce someone's movement is if I am fighting against a lone skirmisher/scout and want to make sure I can finish it off next turn.

It's very usefull when I need to flee with my wounded units. I know it is a suicide of the shaman, if she is not in the woods

And as for the shamans casting slow to reduce attack numbers: it makes total sense. Why? Because it reduces the damage their allies will take against a powerful opponent. That is a fitting ability for a protector/healer. Mind you, any "powerful opponent" is probably going to survive several attacks, so if you only are able to reorder his attacks, that is small consolation (and I'd probably rather keep my shaman in the back row).

I completely agree with you.

[Sapient]

It's very usefull when I need to flee with my wounded units. I know it is a suicide of the shaman, if she is not in the woods

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. Still, unless you have some allies to cover your departure, you are just giving land to the enemy (so it doesn't seem terribly useful). However, if you have allies to cover your departure, then they can already shield you from pursuit (or make pursuit a costly idea).

[Becephalus]

Any ideas for a slow that is fast to explain?

Sure ott -1 or -2 dmg...thats easy to understand although would punish the reverse set of units as are currently punished by slow.

Another possible interesting effect would be to reduce that units defensive value by say 10 or 20%.

Or you could reduce all resistances 30% or something.

Just some ideas as I agree the attack ordering effect seems really complex and in situations where everyone has decent hp, useless.

[Elvish Leader]

Attack specials can be combined, I was experimenting with it.
Is that a bug?

[Tomsik]

Attack specials can be combined, I was experimenting with it.

Hmm...?
I don't think it's possible, or maybe it's possible in trunk?

[Darth Fool]

You can "combine" attack specials by making a comma seperated list, and it will appear in game as such, but the code will not actually recognize the attack special, therefore, it will act like it has no special. Eventually, combined specials will be implemented, but not yet.