Costs for level 2 & 3 (& 4) units

Discussion among members of the development team.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Re: I've mentioned this on the list

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Shade wrote:Maybe (ever so) slightly less value placed on 'specials' and more value placed on the things that go up for 'vanilla' units??? I really think this system is a good way foreward, but as Turin pointed out some values need a bit of work...
The real problem lies in this: Units that have specials at level 1 cost more, but the specials don't get any better, and the melee and ranged and HP have to increase a lot to compensate, so you have a unit with a high cost and weak stats level up into another unit with much stronger/level stats, and the calculator says "OMG it's so much more powerful!"

A system based on power of a linear increase might be better, but it would be harder to get right.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Re: I've mentioned this on the list

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Elvish Pillager wrote:but it would be harder to get right.
The heck with it! It looks better already!

Code: Select all

           Longbowman: 30
        Master Bowman: 46
              Dragoon: 38
             Cavalier: 51
          Necromancer: 28
                 Lich: 42
           Fire Drake: 36
        Inferno Drake: 48
          Drake Flare: 30
     Drake Flameheart: 44
      Drake Gladiator: 30
        Drake Slasher: 30
        Drake Warrior: 30
            Sky Drake: 24
   Dwarvish Steelclad: 28
        Dwarvish Lord: 50
    Dwarvish Stalwart: 27
    Dwarvish Sentinel: 41
Dwarvish Thunderguard: 31
 Dwarvish Dragonguard: 49
   Dwarvish Berserker: 31
        Elvish Ranger: 34
       Elvish Avenger: 56
      Elvish Marksman: 36
  Elvish Sharpshooter: 51
       Elvish Captain: 26
       Elvish Marshal: 43
          Elvish Hero: 31
      Elvish Champion: 56
         Elvish Rider: 29
      Elvish Outrider: 36
         Elvish Druid: 32
         Elvish Shyde: 36
     Elvish Sorceress: 43
   Elvish Enchantress: 52
         Elvish Sylph: 69
              Duelist: 34
            Commander: 57
                 Lord: 78
               Outlaw: 28
               Wraith: 38
              Spectre: 49
               Shadow: 30
           Nightgaunt: 37
           Necrophage: 24
           Necrophage: 24
       Gryphon Master: 30
        Shock Trooper: 35
          Iron Mauler: 44
               Knight: 40
              Paladin: 48
         Grand Knight: 58
               Lancer: 42
          Deathmaster: 45
             Demilich: 66
         Ancient Lich: 82
           White Mage: 32
        Mage of Light: 47
             Red Mage: 36
            Arch Mage: 54
           Great Mage: 72
          Silver Mage: 41
    Mermaid Priestess: 30
      Mermaid Diviner: 41
  Mermaid Enchantress: 33
        Mermaid Siren: 52
               Triton: 27
       Merman Warrior: 26
        Merman Triton: 44
       Merman Hoplite: 24
      Merman Spearman: 28
    Merman Javelineer: 43
     Merman Netcaster: 16
     Merman Entangler: 23
    Mounted Commander: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
      Mounted Warrior: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
              Sea Hag: 22
         Naga Warrior: 28
        Naga Myrmidon: 47
      Noble Commander: 54
           Noble Lord: 70
   Orcish Crossbowman: 24
        Orcish Slayer: 36
       Orcish Warrior: 26
       Orcish Warlord: 56
         Orcish Ruler: 131
     Orcish Sovereign: 148
              Trapper: 27
      Saurian Warrior: 23
     Saurian Ambusher: 24
      Saurian Flanker: 35
    Saurian Icecaster: 27
   Saurian Soothsayer: 21
           Lieutenant: 26
              General: 47
        Grand Marshal: 53
             Revenant: 27
                Draug: 40
           Deathblade: 34
         Bone Shooter: 27
         Soul Shooter: 40
            Swordsman: 25
          Royal Guard: 44
              Pikeman: 20
           Halbardier: 40
           Javelineer: 23
                Rogue: 24
             Assassin: 31
               Bandit: 29
                Troll: 28
        Troll Warrior: 42
     Troll Rocklobber: 26
        Goblin Knight: 32
       Direwolf Rider: 41
      Goblin Pillager: 28
           Elder Wose: 31
         Ancient Wose: 48
                 Ogre: 33

Unit Value Calculator has exited with status 0.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

Sorry

Post by Shade »

Sorry, I just re-read the thread... OK 'I see things better now'... I agree with your list of things that the formula borks up on... I know you say that modifications would produce results that border on guesswork. But I'd rather have either educated & documented guesswork, or an arbitrary floor value [Say 1.75 :) ] than costs that are too low... Too high just leads to non-use, too low causes swarming...

Swordsman: 22***
Pikeman: 18***

This also strikes me as low (He's not that good, but he's certainly not that bad):
Javelineer: 19

As a reference point: 14 x 1.75 = 24.5. That value is at least sane... (With twunking for what it actually upgrades to)

It's the level 2 values that are killing this system- Astronomical on level 3 (Since they mostly only get used on keeps) is better than too low on level two...
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Re: Sorry

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Shade wrote: Astronomical on level 3 (Since they mostly only get used on keeps) is better than too low on level two...
Yeah, but it was giving me 45 gold for a Dragoon and 18 for a Pikeman! That's seriously not right! The latest list uses a purely additive formula, you should see it.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:
Contact Invisible Philosopher

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

The real problem is that we DON'T have many good, balanced reference points for unit costs of units > L1. What's more, high level units are differently good in different situations (e.g. cheaper scouts are usually better). To get balanced L2 costs, we would need to manually balance some representative units among a reasonable variety of contexts.
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
Top
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

I think

Post by Shade »

I think I started composing my post, but was slower than you adding the last post... The newest list is better...
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Invisible Philosopher wrote:The real problem is that we DON'T have many good, balanced reference points for unit costs of units > L1. What's more, high level units are differently good in different situations (e.g. cheaper scouts are usually better). To get balanced L2 costs, we would need to manually balance some representative units among a reasonable variety of contexts.
Surely the philosopher is correct. Still, appropriately formula-generated costs are surely VASTLY better than the previous costs, arbitrarially created by random people who were more interested in the stats and probably added the costs on as a necessary afterthought.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

Post by Shade »

Invisible Philosopher wrote:To get balanced L2 costs, we would need to manually balance some representative units among a reasonable variety of contexts.
Yes. But an automated list of starting points has a lot of value. I've never been fond of surrendering unit costing to any automated system, but any cost after the beginning of tree cost of a unit borders on nonsense right now.
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Top
ott
Inactive Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: September 28th, 2004, 10:20 am

Post by ott »

EP, care to post your formula or program implementing it? This thread seems too valuable to just let it wither away.
This quote is not attributable to Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I think what we need at this point is some implementation, but the formula is as follows...

base unit cost
+ difference between base unit's primary attack damage and upgrade's primary attack damage
+ 1/3 (difference between base unit's secondary attack damage and upgrade's secondary attack damage)
+ 1/8 (difference between base unit's hitpoints and upgrade's hitpoints)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

Post by Shade »

Elvish Pillager wrote:I think what we need at this point is some implementation, but the formula is as follows...
I just got back and am ready to propose something :) Is the last list your final version... If you have a newer tweaked version feel free to post it. Or if you could re-post it with EP's notes on "this cost is insane here's what I'd really suggest, to hell with the formula" it would be great. I'll post to the list for review after that, then implement, implement, implement....
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

The last list was final in that there have been no formula tweaks since. This list is the same, with my adjustments & comments.

Code: Select all

           Longbowman: 30
        Master Bowman: 46
              Dragoon: 38
             Cavalier: 51
          Necromancer: 28
                 Lich: 42
           Fire Drake: 36
        Inferno Drake: 48
          Drake Flare: 30
     Drake Flameheart: 44
      Drake Gladiator: 30
        Drake Slasher: 30
        Drake Warrior: 30 //Quite a coincidence that all the L2 Drakes cost the same.
            Sky Drake: 24
   Dwarvish Steelclad: 28
        Dwarvish Lord: 50
    Dwarvish Stalwart: 27
    Dwarvish Sentinel: 41
Dwarvish Thunderguard: 31
 Dwarvish Dragonguard: 49
   Dwarvish Berserker: 31
        Elvish Ranger: 34
       Elvish Avenger: 56
      Elvish Marksman: 36
  Elvish Sharpshooter: 51
       Elvish Captain: 34
       Elvish Marshal: 63 //Leaders obviously need a boost, from 26 and 43 respectively.
          Elvish Hero: 31
      Elvish Champion: 56
         Elvish Rider: 29
      Elvish Outrider: 36
         Elvish Druid: 42 //Gaining Cures = boost Druid and Shyde by 10
         Elvish Shyde: 51 //Gaining 10% defense = Boost Shyde by additional 5
     Elvish Sorceress: 43
   Elvish Enchantress: 52 //Sorceress etc. are not likely accurate, but must do.
         Elvish Sylph: 69 //I have no idea what they should cost.
              Duelist: 34
            Commander: 57
                 Lord: 78
               Outlaw: 28
               Wraith: 38
              Spectre: 49 //Needs rebalance, but I see no costing problems.
               Shadow: 30
           Nightgaunt: 37
           Necrophage: 24
           Necrophage: 24
       Gryphon Master: 30
        Shock Trooper: 35
          Iron Mauler: 44
               Knight: 40
              Paladin: 53 //Gains heals; increased cost by 5.
         Grand Knight: 56 //Loses movement; decreased cost by 2.
               Lancer: 42
          Deathmaster: 45
             Demilich: 66
         Ancient Lich: 82
           White Mage: 47 //Gains cures; increased cost by 15.
        Mage of Light: 67 //15 here too, plus additional 5 for Illuminates.
             Red Mage: 36
            Arch Mage: 54
           Great Mage: 72 //Woah, that's costly!
          Silver Mage: 51 //Added 10 for teleport.
    Mermaid Priestess: 30
      Mermaid Diviner: 41
  Mermaid Enchantress: 33
        Mermaid Siren: 52
               Triton: 27
       Merman Warrior: 26
        Merman Triton: 44
       Merman Hoplite: 24
      Merman Spearman: 28
    Merman Javelineer: 43
     Merman Netcaster: 16
     Merman Entangler: 23
    Mounted Commander: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
      Mounted Warrior: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
              Sea Hag: 22
         Naga Warrior: 28
        Naga Myrmidon: 47
      Noble Commander: 54
           Noble Lord: 70
   Orcish Crossbowman: 24
        Orcish Slayer: 37 //Altered to compensate for Assassin's rebalance.
       Orcish Warrior: 26
       Orcish Warlord: 56
         Orcish Ruler: 131
     Orcish Sovereign: 148 //Complete trash, the two of these.
              Trapper: 27
      Saurian Warrior: 23
     Saurian Ambusher: 24
      Saurian Flanker: 35
    Saurian Icecaster: 27
   Saurian Soothsayer: 21
           Lieutenant: 34 //Leadership, +8
              General: 63 //Leadership, +16 (same values as Captain and Marshal)
        Grand Marshal: 77 //+24
             Revenant: 27
                Draug: 40
           Deathblade: 31 //reduced by 3 due to resistance loss.
         Bone Shooter: 27
         Soul Shooter: 40
            Swordsman: 25
          Royal Guard: 44
              Pikeman: 20
           Halbardier: 40
           Javelineer: 23
                Rogue: 24
             Assassin: 31
               Bandit: 29
                Troll: 31 //Increased by 3 because Whelp was increased, and for gaining movement.
        Troll Warrior: 45 //+3 on this as well.
     Troll Rocklobber: 29 //and here.
        Goblin Knight: 32
       Direwolf Rider: 41
      Goblin Pillager: 32 //Increased by 4 due to gain Slow & Fire.
           Elder Wose: 31
         Ancient Wose: 48
                 Ogre: 33

Unit Value Calculator has exited with status 0.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
Shade
Posts: 1111
Joined: April 18th, 2004, 11:17 pm

EP, exellent

Post by Shade »

EP, excellent. Thank you very much. I'll post these to the powers that be tonight. If all goes well I'll update the units in the tree In a couple of days (after review). Thanks again for your work on this, this has been a grievance of mine for quite some time.

Argh, now they'll just have to be maintained and tweaked all the way to 1.0 :)
Note to forum users: You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Top
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8137
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:
Contact Elvish_Pillager

Re: EP, exellent

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Shade wrote:EP, excellent. Thank you very much. I'll post these to the powers that be tonight. If all goes well I'll update the units in the tree In a couple of days (after review). Thanks again for your work on this, this has been a grievance of mine for quite some time.
Very good, and you're welcome. I'll be sure to play lots of Age of Heroes in the next version, now that the groundwork's been laid.
Shade wrote:Argh, now they'll just have to be maintained and tweaked all the way to 1.0 :)
On a not entirely related note, someone should make a list of all the various other things you have to do whenever you rebalance a unit or create a new one. ;) (Like rebalancing its upgrades, adding it to the MP eras, etc.)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Top
User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:
Contact turin

Post by turin »

Very good. I just wish this had been done earlier... this makes most balancing done for basically all the campaigns worthless now. :(
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Developers’ Discussions”