Costs for level 2 & 3 (& 4) units

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

turin wrote:Very good. I just wish this had been done earlier... this makes most balancing done for basically all the campaigns worthless now. :(
Yeah, that's the unfortunate bit. Just about all MP/general balance messes up campaign balance. Of course, if we were afraid to do it, where would the Undead be right now? :wink:

The sooner we do it, the sooner we get it over with. It's a pity that the campaigns have to take all these changes as they do, especially when they're harder to balance (AFAICT), but they'll ultimately be better, hopefully.
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Re: EP, exellent

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Shade wrote:I'll post these to the powers that be tonight. If all goes well I'll update the units in the tree In a couple of days (after review).
Whatever happened? One moment everything was going along smoothly, and the next moment, nothing happened! This needs to not be forgotten!
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Re: EP, exellent

Post by Shade »

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Shade wrote:I'll post these to the powers that be tonight. If all goes well I'll update the units in the tree In a couple of days (after review).
Whatever happened? One moment everything was going along smoothly, and the next moment, nothing happened! This needs to not be forgotten!
It hasn't... I just started looking at the changelog for .9.0 and began to grow a certain level of fear about changing more stuff... Assuming .9.1 is a snap release I'll submit it right at the start of the next dev cycle, and someting should 'be done' for .9.2... Also, if you have a proposal for the elvish scouting line that would be nice...

edit: Sorry about not getting back to you in a more prompt manner...

edit #2: I also have a tribalist proposal... from many moons ago...
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

So now what's the status?
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Post by ott »

Shade seems to have become very busy. Your suggested list of unit costings is still as above?
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

ott wrote:Shade seems to have become very busy. Your suggested list of unit costings is still as above?
Ugh. Yes.

EDIT: no... providing the new list in a moment.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Updated slightly due to L1 unit rebalancing.

Code: Select all

           Longbowman: 30
        Master Bowman: 46
              Dragoon: 38
             Cavalier: 51
          Necromancer: 28
                 Lich: 42
           Fire Drake: 35
        Inferno Drake: 51
          Drake Flare: 31
     Drake Flameheart: 44
      Drake Gladiator: 30
        Drake Slasher: 30
        Drake Warrior: 30
            Sky Drake: 25
   Dwarvish Steelclad: 28
        Dwarvish Lord: 49
    Dwarvish Stalwart: 27
    Dwarvish Sentinel: 38
Dwarvish Thunderguard: 32
 Dwarvish Dragonguard: 48
   Dwarvish Berserker: 32
        Elvish Ranger: 34
       Elvish Avenger: 56
      Elvish Marksman: 36
  Elvish Sharpshooter: 51
       Elvish Captain: 34
       Elvish Marshal: 59
          Elvish Hero: 31
      Elvish Champion: 56
         Elvish Rider: 35
      Elvish Outrider: 46
         Elvish Druid: 42
         Elvish Shyde: 51
     Elvish Sorceress: 43
   Elvish Enchantress: 52
         Elvish Sylph: 69
              Duelist: 34
            Commander: 57
                 Lord: 78
               Outlaw: 28
               Wraith: 38
              Spectre: 49
               Shadow: 30
           Nightgaunt: 37
           Necrophage: 24
           Necrophage: 24
       Gryphon Master: 30
        Shock Trooper: 35
          Iron Mauler: 44
               Knight: 40
              Paladin: 53
         Grand Knight: 56
               Lancer: 42
          Deathmaster: 45
             Demilich: 66
         Ancient Lich: 82
           White Mage: 47
        Mage of Light: 67
             Red Mage: 36
            Arch Mage: 54
           Great Mage: 72
          Silver Mage: 51
    Mermaid Priestess: 30
      Mermaid Diviner: 41
  Mermaid Enchantress: 33
        Mermaid Siren: 52
               Triton: 27
       Merman Warrior: 26
        Merman Triton: 44
       Merman Hoplite: 24
      Merman Spearman: 30

    Merman Javelineer: 45
     Merman Netcaster: 28
     Merman Entangler: 35
    Mounted Commander: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
      Mounted Warrior: 110
           Horse Lord: 122
              Sea Hag: 22
         Naga Warrior: 29
        Naga Myrmidon: 48
      Noble Commander: 54
           Noble Lord: 70
   Orcish Crossbowman: 24
        Orcish Slayer: 37
       Orcish Warrior: 26
       Orcish Warlord: 56
         Orcish Ruler: 131
     Orcish Sovereign: 148
              Trapper: 27
      Saurian Warrior: 23
     Saurian Ambusher: 24
      Saurian Flanker: 35
    Saurian Icecaster: 27
   Saurian Soothsayer: 21
           Lieutenant: 34
              General: 53
        Grand Marshal: 77
             Revenant: 27
                Draug: 40
           Deathblade: 31
         Bone Shooter: 27
         Soul Shooter: 40
            Swordsman: 25
          Royal Guard: 44
              Pikeman: 20
           Halbardier: 40
           Javelineer: 23
                Rogue: 24
             Assassin: 31
               Bandit: 29
                Troll: 31
        Troll Warrior: 44
     Troll Rocklobber: 27
        Goblin Knight: 32
       Direwolf Rider: 41
      Goblin Pillager: 32
           Elder Wose: 31
         Ancient Wose: 48
                 Ogre: 33
Last edited by Elvish_Pillager on October 13th, 2005, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ott »

Would it be possible for you to sort and deduplicate the list? Of course this can be done by

Code: Select all

sort | uniq
but the presence of duplicates may be significant, as may the ordering, so I would rather you cast a critical eye over it first.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

ott wrote:Would it be possible for you to sort and deduplicate the list? Of course this can be done by

Code: Select all

sort | uniq
but the presence of duplicates may be significant, as may the ordering, so I would rather you cast a critical eye over it first.
What does "deduplicate" mean?

The ordering is alphabetical by the base unit's name, and the only duplicate unit is the Necrophage.
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Post by ott »

Elvish Pillager wrote:What does "deduplicate" mean?
In the context of programming, it usually means removing duplicates.
The ordering is alphabetical by the base unit's name, and the only duplicate unit is the Necrophage.
And the Horse Lord. But both of these duplicates have identical costs, so it seems sort|uniq will do the job after all.
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Post by ryn »

I seem to recall that you (EP) once had a formula for unit efficiency (power/gold) If you could make your prog use those values, balancing them to one on each level one unit and then using the additive formula on that, I think we might get some interesting results.
2B |! 2B = 3F
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

ryn wrote:I seem to recall that you (EP) once had a formula for unit efficiency (power/gold) If you could make your prog use those values, balancing them to one on each level one unit and then using the additive formula on that, I think we might get some interesting results.
I don't quite understand what you're suggesting, but it seems like it wouldn't be a good idea.
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Post by ott »

This is an important idea, but it looks like it will have to wait until after 1.0. Many of the mainline campaign scenarios currently allow the AI to recruit level 2 and 3 units, especially on Hard. In the limited time we have until 1.0 it seems unlikely that we can rebalance all the campaigns to take this into account.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

ott wrote:This is an important idea, but it looks like it will have to wait until after 1.0. Many of the mainline campaign scenarios currently allow the AI to recruit level 2 and 3 units, especially on Hard. In the limited time we have until 1.0 it seems unlikely that we can rebalance all the campaigns to take this into account.
:x It seems unlikely that those scenarios which use any level 2 units which were significantly changed were at all balanced in the first place.

What's more, if level 3 units are an issue, the level 3 costs simply need not be implemented yet --- they are mostly unimportant to me in light of the fact that there is no Age of Superheroes.

If any balancing needs to be done, it should be done not because of this change but in spite of this change. I can't vouch for the balance or the necessity of 'balance' for any scenario beyond the first four in any campaign.
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Post by ott »

Elvish Pillager wrote::x It seems unlikely that those scenarios which use any level 2 units which were significantly changed were at all balanced in the first place.
I want to see your revision. However, off the top of my head, HttT uses lv 2 and 3 units in the first scenario, increasing their costs would probably make it winnable on Hard by defeating all enemies, necessitating a tweak. The first scenario of EI uses Revenants on Hard, and would probably have to be looked at. Looking more carefully, EI also uses level 2 units in Approaching Weldyn, Crossing, Reject, Tribal Warfare, Two Paths, Undead Crossing, and Weldyn under Attack. SotBE has level 2 units in Clash of Armies, Desert of Death, Saving Inarix, Shan Taum the Smug, Silent Forest, and To the Harbour of Tirigaz. HttT also uses them in A Choice Must Be Made, Battle for Wesnoth, Dwarven Doors, Ford of Abez, Gryphon Mountain, Hasty Alliance, Test of the Clan, Home of the North Elves, Mountain Pass, Northern Winter, Princess of Wesnoth, Return to Wesnoth, Sceptre of Fire, Snow Plains, Swamp of Dread, The Lost General, The Siege of Elensefar, Valley of Death. TROW uses them in A Final Spring, Clearwater Port, Cursed Isle, Fallen Lich Point, Peoples in Decline, Return of the Fleet, Rise of Wesnoth, Sewer, Temple of the Deep, The Dragon, The Midlands, The Oldwood, The River Road, The Vanguard, and Troll Hole.

The good news is that the set of level 2/3 units used is not exhaustive, it's generally Revenants, Trolls, Orcish Crossbowmen and a few others. But I'm exhausted just looking at this lot and trying to think up ways to rebalance and playtest several dozen scenarios, nonetheless.
If any balancing needs to be done, it should be done not because of this change but in spite of this change. I can't vouch for the balance or the necessity of 'balance' for any scenario beyond the first four in any campaign.
Your balancing input would be appreciated, to help us get the campaigns in shape for 1.0.
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