Missing levels (in units)

[fmunoz]

Some units dont have a level 3 advancement ... anyideas or suggestions about them

Outrider level 3
Maybe horsebowman (or horsebowelf )
How should him look like?

Druid/Shaman/Healer level 3

Orcish Assasin/Slayer level 3

Orcish bowmen/xbowmen level 3

Human Scout -> Human Dragoon (not yet finished) -> ?

Also humans need a long range unit ...
maybe with gunpowder weapons

[Dave]

Firstly, it's not necessary for a unit to have a third level. Some units can be capped at level 2. That's part of the game balance: one level 2 unit might be more powerful than another, but may not have any further advancement opportunities.

That's not to say we shouldn't add more levels, I'm just saying it shouldn't be taken as a given that we have to.

I was going to post a suggestion about Outriders, so I'll put it here...

In scenario 8, the player gets gryphon eggs, which are meant to give them access to gryphon riders. A problem with this is that it's hard to imagine gryphon riders being anything other than rather powerful, and the graphic of them certainly looks pretty impressive. The current setup (0.4) is that the player can then recruit gryphon riders, which are very expensive (around 50 gold) flying units that have reasonably impressive stats. I was thinking of making a new level after that, gryphon knight or such, and asking for a new image.

An alternative is to make a level 1 gryphon unit that has a less impressive image, and has the rider riding a gryphon that is half way between being a gryphon pup and an adult. If the unit advances, then both the rider and the gryphon have matured, and we have a level 2 gryphon rider which is on an adult gryphon.

However there is an alternative, which I have considered, and this is where the Elvish Outrider comes in: at the end of scenario 8, they could have a discussion about how it is good that they can breed gryphon pups, but that only the most skillful of riders could hope to ride a gryphon. They conclude that only their best Elvish Outriders could do it. Immediately, any Outriders that are maxed out on experience become third level gryphon riders, and from then on, Outriders can advance to gryphon riders.

Any thoughts on that?

If we decide on making an advanced Outrider that's horse-based, I'd go with a 'Horse Archer'. They have a powerful bow attack (not as powerful as an Avenger or Sharpshooter though), and have a special ability of being able to attack then move on the same turn (but not move, attack, move).

David

[ettin]

Outrider level 3
Maybe horsebowman

Or maybe a Hunter

And about the gryphons, I prefer a new complete unit.
Horse units always mount horses, and in my opinion, gryphons aren't just flying horses.

[Dave]

in my opinion, gryphons aren't just flying horses.

This is definitely true, it's mainly just that from a game play point of view, letting the player recruit a gryphon-based unit from scratch could be rather overpowering.

Further, it would somewhat make outriders seem 'obsolete'.

David

[miyo]

Let's gather possibilities for units (with some upgrade paths):

Hunter
Musketeer
Barbarian ---> Gladiator ---> Legionaire
Pirate (can swim over deep waters, slow when swimming)
Gryphon Lancer (flying charge unit)
Gryphon Slinger ---> Gryphon Archer ---> Gryphon Hunter
Slinger (Halfling/Hobbit slinger anyone?)
Spearman ---> Pikeman
Earth Mage (earthquake spell, causes damage on all adjacent tiles)
Wind Mage (tornado spell)
Ice Mage (icecle spell, piercing damage)

[Dave]

Spearman ---> Pikeman

Yeah we've been waiting for pikemen for a while

I think that spearmen should get a close range and a long range attack. One of the purposes of spears is to throw them right?

When a spearmen upgrades, he chooses to become a pikeman or a javelineer. A pikeman has no long range attack, and is 'defensive', meaning he takes half damage when he is attacked. A javelineer throws javelins and is powerful from long range.

Musketeer

'Musketeer' sounds a little out-of-theme to me, but we could go with 'Arquebusier', who has a primitive gun that sometimes does alot of damage and sometimes backfires on the owner. Has a slow rate of fire.

Gryphon Lancer (flying charge unit)

Possibly, but from what I've seen, fast/flying units that can charge are VERY powerful. Scenario 7 used to have lots of chocobones, but they had to be severely toned down, because they were way too powerful. If you get an Outrider in scenario 7 to get Holy Water, they can be very powerful because they can attack an enemy leader and kill him off. I am considering removing charging ability from outriders because of this, and just give them a sword as their close range weapon.

We could have a variety of gryphon-based units though.

Gryphon Hunter

Is this someone who rides a Gryphon, or someone who tries to kill them?

Wind Mage (tornado spell)

A tornado that sends an enemy flying off 5-10 hexes in a random direction would be possible.

Ice Mage (icecle spell, piercing damage)

I'd actually like several 'ice' units and the addition of a new terrain type: tundra. Actually I think that the current terrain set gets a little boring after a while, so some other new terrain is needed too: swamp and jungle.

David

[miyo]

I think that spearmen should get a close range and a long range attack. One of the purposes of spears is to throw them right?

When a spearmen upgrades, he chooses to become a pikeman or a javelineer. A pikeman has no long range attack, and is 'defensive', meaning he takes half damage when he is attacked. A javelineer throws javelins and is powerful from long range.

Agreed.

Number of attacks against pikeman should be halved, not the damage. It is harder to hit them... but if you hit them you do your damage.

'Musketeer' sounds a little out-of-theme to me, but we could go with 'Arquebusier', who has a primitive gun that sometimes does alot of damage and sometimes backfires on the owner. Has a slow rate of fire.

Powerful attack and poor hit chance? In the beginning guns were less accurate than bows.

Gryphon Lancer (flying charge unit)

Possibly, but from what I've seen, fast/flying units that can charge are VERY powerful. Scenario 7 used to have lots of chocobones, but they had to be severely toned down, because they were way too powerful. If you get an Outrider in scenario 7 to get Holy Water, they can be very powerful because they can attack an enemy leader and kill him off. I am considering removing charging ability from outriders because of this, and just give them a sword as their close range weapon.

Mounted archery should have swords, not lances or spears.

Gryphons are vicious creatures... maybe their riders don't have any close combat weapons (which they could use while riding) - in close combat they can barely control their Gryphons. Rider controls the Gryphon and uses it's natural attacks (eg. claws, like wolf riders). Though Gryphon Slinger and Gryphon Archer would have long range weapons.

Gryphon Hunter

Is this someone who rides a Gryphon, or someone who tries to kill them? :-)

It was and idea about advanced Gryphon Archer... but maybe it would better suite for those that hunt Gryphons.

In that case Dwarves definately need to have "Orc Hunter" that becomes "Orc Slayer"

A tornado that sends an enemy flying off 5-10 hexes in a random direction would be possible.

Maybe we should call it "Whirlwind"? Should it affect only unit that has been attacked or all adjacent units?

I'd actually like several 'ice' units and the addition of a new terrain type: tundra. Actually I think that the current terrain set gets a little boring after a while, so some other new terrain is needed too: swamp and jungle.

Eskimo's, Viking's or just Northmen?

I quess next you want Oriental/Eastern units? And desert people after that? *grin*

Should we decide what units are goal for 0.5... and what units will be left for future releases?

- Miyo

[Dave]

Powerful attack and poor hit chance? In the beginning guns were less accurate than bows.

Hmm...initially I didn't like this idea, but I guess it makes sense: a 'reverse marksman'. Someone who has a maximum hit chance of (say) 50%.

Gryphons are vicious creatures... maybe their riders don't have any close combat weapons (which they could use while riding) - in close combat they can barely control their Gryphons. Rider controls the Gryphon and uses it's natural attacks (eg. claws, like wolf riders). Though Gryphon Slinger and Gryphon Archer would have long range weapons.

Yes, claws are possibly best for close range with Gryphons.

Also perhaps we could represent that inexperienced Gryphon riders have trouble controlling their Gryphons in combat in some way that figures out to be a disadvantage?

One possibility would be that if you move next to more than one enemy with a level 1 Gryphon rider, then the Gryphon (i.e. the computer) chooses who to attack, and not the player. I'm not sure about this though....any thoughts?

It was and idea about advanced Gryphon Archer... but maybe it would better suite for those that hunt Gryphons.

In that case Dwarves definately need to have "Orc Hunter" that becomes "Orc Slayer"

Actually I was just joking about this, pointing out that your wording sounded kinda ambiguous

A special battleaxe that can be used by Dwarves called "Orc Slayer" might be good though!

Maybe we should call it "Whirlwind"? Should it affect only unit that has been attacked or all adjacent units?

I'll probably say that it can affect all adjacent units, and then make it only affect the unit being attacked because it'll be easier to implement

Actually all adjacent units may be rather too powerful anyway. We'll see. I'll also have to make sure that units don't end up in 'unfair' locations like stranded out at sea.

Eskimo's, Viking's or just Northmen?

Not Eskimos, maybe Vikings, but more like....Ice Giants.

I quess next you want Oriental/Eastern units? And desert people after that? *grin*

Oriental/Eastern, no, because they're not associated with any type of terrain, but desert people, yes

On the topic of Oriental people though, it would be entirely possible to use the same game engine for an Eastern/Asian-themed game with Samurai, Ninja etc.

Should we decide what units are goal for 0.5... and what units will be left for future releases?

This sounds awfully like planning!

Realistically at this stage, it's whatever graphics fmunoz produces, since he's the only one doing graphics at this stage. Of course, there are a number of units that he's drawn that aren't even used yet

The next major characters I have planned are dwarves, for which we do have some graphics. Suggestions as to their stats are welcome. I'm thinking tough units with quite a few hitpoints, and very good at close range, but no long range attack.

David

[Shroud]

Well, being an eternal advocate of the dwarfs.. here are some dwarven ideas that I came up with!

Dwarven Warrior (Lvl1) Wielding an Axe (Blade damage), Damage 6-2

Advances too:-

Dwarven Captain (Lvl2) Wields an Axe and a Shield (Blade & Impact damage), Axe damage 9-2

Dwarven Captain has the leadership ability
NEW ABILITY:- Perhaps the Captain could use his shield to BASH the opponent, aswell as possibly doing 10-1 damage, it could also STUN the opponent and have the SLOW effect for the enemies next turn

OR ALTERNATE ABILITY:- The captain could select 1 unit adjacent to himself to defend, when defending he could get a % chance to shield the unit he is defending from a blow (Something low like %20 or %30) or perhaps the enemy attacking could just recieve a reduced rate of attack.

Alternate Advance to Captain:--

Dwarven Skirmisher (Lvl2) Wields a 2 handed battleaxe (Blade & Impact Damage), Has the option to take 2 swings at the opponent, 12-2 or to try and CRUSH the opponent with his axe, (30-1), when attempting to crush, the opponent would have increased chances of hitting, and damage inflicted.



Dwarven Captain advances to:-

Dwarven Marshal (Lvl3) Wields an Axe and a Shield (Blade & Impact damage), Axe damage 12-3

Dwarven Marshal has the leadership ability


Dwarven Skirmisher advances to:-

Dwarven Beserker Wields a 2 handed battleaxe (Blade & Impact Damage), Has the option to take 3 swings at the opponent, 15-3 or to try and CRUSH the opponent with his axe, (50-1), when attempting to crush, the opponent would have increased chances of hitting, and damage inflicted.

Ability:- Beserker Frenzy, Each Beserker can go into a Beserker Frenzy, ONCE per scenario, it lasts for 3 turns, during a frenzy, the beserkers amount of attacks are doubled, but the amount of damage recieved when hit is also doubled.



I have some other Dwarven ideas which i will post later on!

[Dave]

I like the idea of a 'beserker frenzy', but it'd just be one attack that can be done once per scenario. That's already pretty close to implemented. The beserker frenzy could allow something like the beserker doing double damage with each hit and getting double the number of attacks..or something.

Anyway beserker frenzies go for a few minutes, not 12 hours, right?

David

[miyo]

I think Dwarven can berserk more than eg. once per three days.

When Dwarf does a berserker attack(!) it does doubled damage, doubled number of strikes, halved hit to chance and takes double damage from defender. On enemy turn unit takes strikes from enemies but does not strike back.

- Miyo

[Dave]

Well that is true, but anyhow, the game supports allowing something once per scenario or anytime you like. I'm not going to add anything about "can do this once every 4 turns" or anything like that. So the choices are either to do a beserker frenzy anytime he wants, but it has disadvantages as well as advantages, or only do it once per scenario and make it have mostly advantages.

Equivalently a mage could have a special spell that he memorizes, but can only cast once per scenario and so forth.

David

[miyo]

Make berserk attacks have enough vulnerabilities so you have think when to use them and when to not use them.

I think taking double damage and not being able to strike back during enemy turn are quite heavy vulnerabilities.

EDIT: Maybe they should also take double damage on enemy turn also.