Guns in Wesnoth?

Post by **Dave** » November 24th, 2003, 7:53 pm

A few units in Wesnoth currently have primitive guns - the Dwarvish Thunderer, and the Human Duelist for instance. Is this a good idea? Does it detract from the feel of the game? Should units with guns be removed?

(Note: like all polls, this is to gauge people's opinions. The poll is not binding.)

David

Kamahawk · Post by **Kamahawk** » November 24th, 2003, 7:58 pm

Guns just don't seem to fit well with the game, I was surprised when I saw the human duelist for the first time.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » November 24th, 2003, 8:01 pm

Guns are for different era, Wesnoth is about swords and magic.

- Miyo

yawningdog · Post by **yawningdog** » November 24th, 2003, 8:09 pm

I think primitive guns add some variation and diversity to the game, sparing every single human-like ranged unit to use either a bow or a crossbow. I think guns don't deviate from the game mood, and instead help to reflect the differences between cultures and races.

Elves with guns would certainly feel weird, but a dwarf with an unreliable and primitive gun or a duelist with a small pistol feel right to me.

ja-el · Post by **ja-el** » November 24th, 2003, 8:17 pm

there could be another ranged unit, slinger, or perhaps a dagger thrower, guns really dont fit into wesnoth, at least not from my point of view and drawves are mighty warriors not some pistol guys (they fight with axes and swords and all that stuff

Post by **fmunoz** » November 24th, 2003, 8:32 pm

I really dont see dwarves with guns, humans on the other hand are fine (errr ... ok I did the duelist and dragoon

There where gunpower weapons as early as year 1100, even in Europe.
There are a lot of fantasy games with primitive fire weapons, Age of Wonders (not really a good example

) the GW warhammer tabletop games, etc...
When I designed the humans I took inspiration in thinks like the film Paul Verhoeven's film "Flesh + Blood" (titulada "Los seÃƒÂ±ores del acero en EspaÃƒÂ±a)
Most fantasy settings are too inspired in D&D, we should break its chains!!!! (Things like mixing mithological elfs and tolkien/D&D fantasy elves are ok, we want a Wesnoth fantasy!!!)

methinks · Post by **methinks** » November 24th, 2003, 8:41 pm

I think that guns do not fit to BfW mood, even though guns appeared, as it was mentioned, quite 'early'. Typical, hard-fantasy mood is sword&blade, rare guns does occur here and there but are extremely RARE and EXPENSIVE so having units we can actually buy would be a misunderstaning. If you have to incorporate guns, please do it only with special units (that is limited ones, like mermen in scenario 3).
Still I think guns is bad idea. I think that you can incorporate guns in another "version" of BfW based on this engine. Of course this would be prolly different game

yawningdog · Post by **yawningdog** » November 24th, 2003, 8:46 pm

Humm... weird. Hasn't anyone played warhammer here? It's strange that *primitive* guns feel so alien to you.

As for dwarfs, that depends on the author; there's the "brainless", drunken dwarf carrying a huge axe twice his size, and the dwarf that excels at engineering feats, from designing guns and cannons to building fortresses and bridges.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » November 24th, 2003, 9:03 pm

There is only need to break the chains if you are binded by them... are you? I don't feel that we are chained by D&D. And what comes to warhammer - even if Warhammer has firearms... we don't have to have them. Even if D&D did not have firearms... we can have them. Historically there were firearms... historically there were not Elves, Dwarves, Undead or Orcs.

This is about Wesnoth and should there be guns in the world of Wesnoth. This is about what Wesnoth feels... not what other games have or don't have.

And you forgot one type of Dwarf... "brainless", drunken dwarf that can build siege engines. Guns require knowledge of powder... maybe Dwarfs in Wesnoth never invented it.

- Miyo

Post by **Dave** » November 24th, 2003, 9:14 pm

miyo wrote:And you forgot one type of Dwarf... "brainless", drunken dwarf that can build siege engines. Guns require knowledge of powder... maybe Dwarfs in Wesnoth never invented it.

In addition to that, maybe there is no such thing as saltpeter in Wesnoth? Maybe the necessary minerals to construct firearms simply do not exist in the world Wesnoth is in?

David

Dobob · Post by **Dobob** » November 25th, 2003, 12:03 am

I for guns, as long as the are kept strong but unreliable = 1 strong attack only, like how it is now for the duelist and the dragoon. I don't have very good reasons why it should be kept (except maybe because the result of it is very random). But I don't reason against either, because it took some time before guns were able to replace bows and swords, so there's no reason Wesnoth shouldn't them.

KK_r · Post by **KK_r** » November 25th, 2003, 8:40 am

I belive there is some guns in D&D but not on the standard weaponlists (there are also some alien weapons).

Sithrandel · Post by **Sithrandel** » November 25th, 2003, 9:34 am

Personally I do not like the idea of guns in Wesnoth. I was disappointed when guns came into Warcraft, then airships and helicopters.

The advent of guns and the industrial revolution changed warfare completely and led to a gradual reduction in levels of heroism as warfare rapidly became less personal.

We do not have to keep to historical perspectives, so weak guns could represent a pinacle rather than a start I suppose. Still I feel that their inclusion does weaken the atmosphere.

It is not a case of following D&D or Warhammer. As others have said Wesnoth is its own product and that is one of the things I like about it. This is an issue of personal taste.

I think that guns bring the fantasy world too close to modernity for my own liking. I don't think that they add anything but they do detract.

As for what ranged to use instead? Well, blowpipes, slings, daggers, throwing stars, javelins, discus, etc there is a large list (even leaving out magic). If guns are chosen it should certainly not be because of a lack of choice in ranged weapons.

If Wesnoth does move more solidly towards multi-campaigns then perhaps there could be multiple upgrade paths. Thus some campaigns could include gun-bearing units and others contain no less powerful ranged non-gun units.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » November 25th, 2003, 9:54 am

In Yrth (GURPS Fantasy) secret of gunpowder has been found, mages feel that gunpowder threatens their power and therefore they are against using it... actually they keep eliminating the threat. So if anyone gains the secret of gunpowder they can soon expect visit from mercenaries, assassins or mages... and they do not come to negotiate.

- Miyo

Post by **Dave** » November 25th, 2003, 3:57 pm

miyo wrote:In Yrth (GURPS Fantasy) secret of gunpowder has been found, mages feel that gunpowder threatens their power and therefore they are against using it... actually they keep eliminating the threat. So if anyone gains the secret of gunpowder they can soon expect visit from mercenaries, assassins or mages... and they do not come to negotiate.

For the last ten or so years of the reign of king Garard, Delfador was the most influential mage in Wesnoth. He was responsible for establishing a more sophisticated hierarchy of mages than there was previously, and caused the military to rely more heavily on the support of mages than it had previously.

The climate would not have been positive toward development of technology as an alternative to magic, but neither would it have been openly hostile.

When Asheviere came to power, she saw Delfador as her ultimate enemy: he did not die easily as the king had, he killed her son, and he defied her by escaping. The common opinion among mages was that Delfador was a hero: he had defied this tyrant, and did what he could to stem her bloodthirsty rampage.

The results were not subtle: Asheviere stripped any mages that had rank in the military of their power, replacing them with soldiers skilled in use of sword and shield. Mages were forced to pledge allegiance to Asheviere, or face imprisonment or death. They were driven out of the more well-controlled parts of Wesnoth, to outskirts like Blackwater Port and Anduin.

In such a climate, one could conceive that the military could develop gunpowder, especially as an alternative device to control the people. Mages were more concerned with fleeing for their lives, or investigating the possibility of alternative lines of work -- or simply joining Asheviere and submitting to her -- than any thoughts of resisting the development of technology.

Also, the Dwarves are an almost forgotten people in Wesnoth, little seen in Wesnoth itself, mostly living in the barbaric Northern lands where those that remain still resist complete conquest by the hordes of Orcs and Trolls that ravage the lands. Mages are barely to be found there, and have no influence. But, with their main objective being immediate survival, it is a little doubtful that the Dwarves would have been able to develop gunpowder.

David

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