Guns in Wesnoth?

Discussion among members of the development team.

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Should some units in Wesnoth have guns?

Yes!
26
39%
No!
40
61%
 
Total votes: 66

Blades

Post by Blades »

@ methinks:
I do not see this much of Tolkien's influence...
I don't want to sound like I'm baiting or anything, but this is very heavily influenced by Tolkien.(Not that that's a bad thing. :P ) For one, we have elves, that aren't less than 2 feet tall, that aren't always playing pranks, and that fight. Two, we have orcs, orcs that are devided into orcs and goblins, orcs that hate elves, orcs that are _evil_. Just about the only difference between Tolkien and wesnoth, is that the undead are an actual power. Hope I didn't come off as being biting.

@ Sithrandel:
...keep both camps happy at the expense of the scenario writers :wink:
I hate you... j/k :lol: But on a more serious note, it's hard enough already! :?

I'd strongly suggest steamjacks, if this wasn't high fantasy. :)

Cya-
DragonLord
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Post by DragonLord »

I have a simple solution... leave it as it is.
-DragonLord
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methinks
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Post by methinks »

Da worst solution EVER :)
DragonLord
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Post by DragonLord »

Why? I haven't seen any cries to take away the guns that two units have, just to not add new ones... unless I've made some sort of error in my calculations...

-DragonLord
Fate is like an unpopular restaurant in which odd waiters come and give you things you didn't ask for and don't always like.
Circon
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Post by Circon »

Blades wrote:I don't want to sound like I'm baiting or anything, but this is very heavily influenced by Tolkien.
Of course. But we have a choice- be influenced by some book/game/story/whatever, or invent all our own creatures.
The first leaves us worrying about copyrights, the second will give players nothing familiar to play with.


OBTW; I'd agree with DragonLord, leave the few that are. Don't add anymore. Definitely don't try to rationalize gunpowder, that always subtracts from the fantasy atmosphere. Just have a gun-toting unit.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Sorry to post on a dead thread, but i just wanna say this...

Dwarves with large, unwieldy mortars or cannons are fine. I see no problem with them. My problem is with the dragoon and the duelist. Their weapons are pistols and guns, which seem to just ruin the game. I think you should just take away the duelist. It sounds to me like someone from a western. And the dragoon is named after a particular rank in the british army, in the fifteenth century.

The idea of gunpowder in wesnoth to me is that it is primitive, and would not work well in a pistol or musket. My thinking is that they could fire large missles but move slow. However, the dragoon is a scout unit! Keep the dwarves, loose the dragoon and duelist.
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DragonLord
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Post by DragonLord »

Do you know how unbalanced that would make this game?!? Please THINK BEFORE YOU POST!!! That would take a whole lot away from the Humans on multiplayer... if anything, we need MORE human units, not less! Why don't we make a 3rd lvl fencer called a Swordsmaster or something who loses the ranged attack but has more health, damage, and attacks?
Fate is like an unpopular restaurant in which odd waiters come and give you things you didn't ask for and don't always like.
quartex
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Post by quartex »

No need to scream DragonLord. Turin was thinking about the game in terms of the world of wesnoth, you obviously are much more concerned with balancing the different sides strategically. Since multiplayer is not the emphasis of BfW, I think it would be nice if eventually the sides are pretty equal, but we don't have to go nuts trying to balance them exactly. So I think that it is valid to say we should remove these two units, assuming we replaced them with similar units to make sure the humans/loyalists aren't too weak. I'm not too much of a stickler with guns, but I guess the duelest is worse than the dragoon IMHO, it does a bit out of place in an army. But we have so much to do to finish this game, I suppose removing existing units is a bit counter-productive.
miyo
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Post by miyo »

Leave the few units with guns that we already have.

Except that Dwarvish Thunderer should be second level unit (it needs to be made a bit more powerful) and 1st level unit should be Dwarvish Crossbow.

- Miyo
Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

I'm not much in favor of gun neither. A few here and there, specially in the hand of slow dwarf units is somehow OK but not more. That some human leaders have some is OK too since they could afford a little toy weapon in case they end up in a fight. back to the earth history (not binding for the game but a usefull guide) hand guns were a late development, fisrt came primitive canon (bombard) and mortar, then the first individual weapon was a pole gun (about 30-40 kg!) then came muskets (barely better). Miniaturization to a hand gun took hundreds of years specially because of the low quality of metal used.
There are a lot of alternate distance weapon available as already pointed out. Since the range of the distance weapon is not a factor in the game, they are all easy to implement. human and dwarf definitively needs some more good distance weapon but there is a wide choice. You can add to the list throwing axe and hammer (for dwarf?), shuriken for an oriental flavor, atlatl (spear thrower, use a stick with a "hook" to throw spears futher and more precisely than by hand) , bola (entangle like a net)... and what about just a good heavy stone thrown by a troll or an ogre (and a giant)?
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Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

By the way, I also think that a duelist has nothing to do in a regular army.. the unit should be revamped and renamed. Here is an apporoximate citation:
When asked why not hiring a famous duelist in a army instead of a soldier the general answered " a soldier is trained to kills enemy, a duelist kills people on your side".
Maybe the duelist can be used as a neutral unit in some scenario but not as a regular fighting unit.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

Ok, bumping this since miyo pointed at it. As far as guns in Wesnoth go, I am generally against them unless they are in a seperate later campaign. However, I should like to question those who point at Tolkien as canon for fantasy (sorry, pun intended, couldn't help myself...) and use this to say "no guns", what was the fire of Orthanc if not gunpowder? The next logical step would be guns...etc...

It is worth pointing out, however, that early guns were generally much worse than bows and crossbows as they were very inaccurate. So, if we insist on having guns, I think that not only should they be one-shot wanders, but have a penalty to hit!
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Post by Sangel »

I entirely disagree. The one-shot effect alone makes them an extremely unwieldy and unreliable weapon - perfect for representing their primitive nature.
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Loriel
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Post by Loriel »

Another option would be to change the mechanics of guns slightly, adding one (or more) "reloading" rounds between firing rounds.

Whilst well-trained late-era gunpowder units could fire two rounds per minute, or more, I suspect early units would be closer to five minutes per round. Thus early musketeer units were accompanied by pike units which could continue fighting while the musketeers reloaded, and the ratio of pikes to muskets was usually at least 2 to 1.
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

well, since turns are several hours long, I suspect that the gunners would have time to reload.

One shot being unreliable is not true when attacking against something that is not in good defensive terrain!
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