Undead are too weak

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » July 17th, 2004, 10:39 pm

More skeletons this time, replays with and without strategy. Without strategy, a bunch more skeletons were left.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » July 18th, 2004, 12:48 pm

Real data: I played 6 battles in that scenario.

Without strategy:
Game 1: Killed 6 skeletons
Game 2: Killed 6 skeletons
Game 3: Killed 7 skeletons
Average: 6.3 skeletons killed

With strategy:
Game 1: Killed 12 skeletons
Game 2: Killed 12 skeletons
Game 3: Killed all 18 skeletons!
Average:14 skeletons killed

I killed more than twice as many skeletons with my strategy.

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » July 18th, 2004, 1:29 pm

EP, is that a random strategy or a random anti-strategy? I mean, it's possible that while your fixed strategy is well-defined, you actually may be inadvertently using an anti-strategy that gives worse results than the average strategy that isn't your strategy.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » July 18th, 2004, 1:56 pm

autolycus wrote:EP, is that a random strategy or a random anti-strategy? I mean, it's possible that while your fixed strategy is well-defined, you actually may be inadvertently using an anti-strategy that gives worse results than the average strategy that isn't your strategy.

I see your point... with the non-strategy, my primary goal was to kill as many skeletons as I could, as fast as I could. That's generally a fairly good strategy.

autolycus · Post by **autolycus** » July 18th, 2004, 7:48 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:I see your point... with the non-strategy, my primary goal was to kill as many skeletons as I could, as fast as I could. That's generally a fairly good strategy.

OK, so it's actually a 'berserk' vs 'phalanx' comparison. I guess the main thing is that 'phalanx' can be rigidly defined, but 'berserk' really does depend on terrain and all, because 'kill as many skeletons' as you can depends on advantageous terrain and which units are still alive.

SteelP · Post by **SteelP** » July 18th, 2004, 9:53 pm

Ha ha, that was a joke, wasn't it?

If you have lots of money you got a chance, but not always you got that money and can apply marvelous strategies.
Without woses elves are unbalanced against undead, their only chance are mages, which can be taken down by a human player in multiplayer easily (against human or ai).

telly · Post by **telly** » July 18th, 2004, 10:02 pm

Yeah, I can't comment on those replays because I can't watch them but what SteelP says is spot on.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » July 18th, 2004, 10:18 pm

how do you get the replay to work? You seem to need a scenario called 'test' but there is no such scenario in 0.8....

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » July 18th, 2004, 10:20 pm

Oops. I wonder why you can't watch replays without the scenario. It's all in the savefile...

Can't be bothered to .zip anything, so...

Code: Select all

[campaign]
icon=human-spearman.png
id=test
define=TEST
name=Test
first_scenario=test
[/campaign]

[scenario]
	name="Battle"
	map_data="gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
ggggggggggggg1gg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg
gggggggggggggggg"

	id=test
	next_scenario=test
	turns=10
	victory_when_enemies_defeated=no
	
	{DAWN}
	{MORNING}
	{AFTERNOON}
	{DUSK}
	{FIRST_WATCH}
	{SECOND_WATCH}
			
	[side]
	side=1
	type=Elvish Captain
	controller=human
	canrecruit=1
	team_name=ajd
	[/side]
	[side]
	side=2
	no_leader=yes
	team_name=yurtsr
	[ai]
	grouping=no
	aggression=1.0
	[/ai]
	[/side]
	
	[event]
	name=start
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=3
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=4
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=5
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=6
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=7
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=2
	y=8
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=3
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=4
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=5
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=6
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=7
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=3
	y=8
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=3
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=4
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=5
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=6
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=7
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=4
	y=8
	side=2
	type=Skeleton
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=3
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=4
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=5
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=6
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=7
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=7
	y=8
	side=1
	type=Elvish Fighter
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=3
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=4
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=5
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=6
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=7
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[unit]
	x=8
	y=8
	side=1
	type=Mage
	[/unit]
	[/event]
[/scenario]

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » July 18th, 2004, 10:28 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:Oops. I wonder why you can't watch replays without the scenario. It's all in the savefile...

Only when "mid_scenario=true". I wonder why it is set to 'false' on replays?

Post by **Dave** » July 18th, 2004, 11:35 pm

Dacyn wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:Oops. I wonder why you can't watch replays without the scenario. It's all in the savefile...
Only when "mid_scenario=true". I wonder why it is set to 'false' on replays?

Because a replay does not start in the middle of the scenario. It starts at the start of the scenario, and needs to be loaded like a start-of-scenario save.

David

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » July 18th, 2004, 11:44 pm

Dave wrote:Because a replay does not start in the middle of the scenario. It starts at the start of the scenario, and needs to be loaded like a start-of-scenario save.

what is the point of the [replay_start] tag, then?

Post by **Dave** » July 19th, 2004, 12:18 am

Dacyn wrote:
Dave wrote:Because a replay does not start in the middle of the scenario. It starts at the start of the scenario, and needs to be loaded like a start-of-scenario save.
what is the point of the [replay_start] tag, then?

The [replay_start] tag is used in situations where the game is played on a scenario that is generated on-the-fly by the game. This is most often a multiplayer scenario, although it could also be e.g. a random map scenario in a campaign.

David

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » July 19th, 2004, 12:44 am

About the level: I think it was too easy; I won it all 3 times I played it. Although the enemy starts out with 60G more than you, it is countered by the time of day and that you move first.

I wrote:huh? couldn't you just play a game against undead, then save the replay?

I didn't mean to create a scenario; I meant play a multiplayer game against undead. Like this:

telly · Post by **telly** » July 19th, 2004, 1:12 am

I've watched the replays now and its just so easy to beat the AI that all of them are worthless. Especially that last one, 20x20 map and the computer recruited mostly bats and zombies, tough game..