GPL Policy

[TimothyP]

So I think that the issue that needs to be resolved for all of us contributors is why are we here, donating our time and effort to this cause of Wesnoth? If we hope to advance this game (and thus in my estimation, the open source initiative), then GPL shouldn't be an issue. If our goals are more personal, however, then there are other closed venues that may be better suited to meet those goals.

My goal was always both. To boost Wesnoth with good music and to gain experience at the same time. But if my music/melodies/audio recordings become open for people to mess with, that changes things.

Can anyone verify for certain that music can be included under the GPL? Are any other composers concerned about this, or are you all resolved to letting your music be ripped off and reworked?

[opensourcejunkie]

Seriously, licensing is a sensitive issue, and should not be touched lightly. And thinking that coders/artists/composers work the same way is in my opinion misguided, and might lead to misunderstanding. I'm not knowledgeable in this area and thus do not know what is the correct understanding, so...

Please leave a knowledgeable developer etc. only to discuss the question.

Yeah, I think we do need an official voice on this. West is official, right? organizes the music && sounds if I recall. He posted a bit earlier, but I don't believe he gave an official declaration of yes/no GPL on BfW music works.

And thinking that coders/artists/composers work the same way is in my opinion misguided

perhaps we work differently, but I think that underlyingly, the same emotions pass through us all when something of ours is stolen, or modified degeneratively. I know Bill Gates wrote a very emotional (and nasty) letter when people were ripping off copies of his early software; I imagine he was just as pissed as any artist, writer, or coal miner who had someone else take credit for his work. But, that's just from my observations of people; I could be wrong.

[Jozrael]

I know Bill Gates wrote a very emotional (and nasty) letter when people were ripping off copies of his early software

...IRONY

[zookeeper]

All of Wesnoth's music is currently under the GPL, regardless of whether anyone can or would be willing to fulfill the legal requirements for that.

What we can do is change the license. But the exact license to change to is something you composers need to decide - luckily all the authors seem to be around (I'm sure even Zhaytee is contactable), so it's not impossible to get everyone's permission for a license switch (unlike with, for instance, art).

[opensourcejunkie]

I know Bill Gates wrote a very emotional (and nasty) letter when people were ripping off copies of his early software

...IRONY

tell me about it...

or are you all resolved to letting your music be ripped off and reworked?

well...that's the whole point of wesnoth, isn't it? That's what drives us forward. If all sprite images were locked under a non-open license, it would be so much more difficult to create sprite animations - everything would have to be done from scratch. If the code was closed, it would be hard to learn from others' examples. If all the tutorials and technical writing of the wiki were unable to be changed, copied, or updated, it would cease to be useful unless someone wrote an entirely new wiki for each new version of the game.

What drives us forward is the ability to collaborate - to update, and otherwise improve upon this game, in its entirety. I have considered eventually taking the main menu theme and turning it into a piece that could be suitable for general gameplay, (eventually, if ever) I have a music theory background; I think that I could do it , with a lot of work and revision. But if I could modify that original piece, it would make my life easier, and make me more productive.

That's ultimately what open source and open content work models are about, right? - collaboration. And dude I totally get where you're coming from on this. I had a classmate try to steal my heard-earned, code once, and it wasn't pleasant. But in an open community like this, assuming I understand correctly, we are specifically and willingly laying down some of our rights in order to further another goal. So at least as for me, even though I may not be a music dev, yes, I am resolved to let my artistic content be ripped off and reworked. Because that's what Open Source is about.

[West]

What zookeeper said, basically.

This discussion has come up before, but I think the thread was lost in the crash. We talked about changing the music license to CC-something-or-other, but nothing was decided.

Of course, a change of license doesn't change the fact that the currently included music is under the GPL, and can be used according to the GPL. Or am I wrong?

[zookeeper]

Of course, a change of license doesn't change the fact that the currently included music is under the GPL, and can be used according to the GPL. Or am I wrong?

No, that's correct. Of course you could argue that you didn't know that GPL licensing was a requirement for putting the music in the game in the first place.

In practise it probably doesn't matter, since I doubt anyone is very interested in making money with our tracks, especially when the fact that they are also GPL might be forgotten pretty soon after the license change (which I hope is coming).

[West]

I don't know how STIM works, but you are wrong about the Sacem. Every french composer (film score, video game, pop, rock, you name it) is registered to the Sacem in the professional field. Plus, Sacem takes care of every artist that comes from a foreign country that gets produced in France, like Madonna, etc... So, why does everybody trust them?

Ah, I see. Then STIM and Sacem are probably not the same type of organizations. STIM handles radio airplay, AFAIK. If you're registered with STIM and your songs get played on the radio, STIM pays you a small amount. They're also doing a lot of ugly lobbying -- they want to implement filesharing taxes on broadband and stuff like that.

Yes you do. Because you need to prove that you created it. Doing it officially, on a theoretical point of view, protects you from anything. If you compose a piece, and someone steals it and registers it under his name before you, how can you prove that you are the original creator?

I don't know about other countries, but in Sweden you can do this: before releasing music, burn the songs on a cd, put the cd in an envelope, address it to yourself, and then go to the post office. There, you tell them you want it delivered with... um, I don't know the English word for this but... there's a sort of warranty you can get so that the postal service accepts full responsibility for whatever it is your sending. If it's lost or damaged, they have to compensate you. When the envelope is delivered, don't open it and put it in a safe place. The date on the stamp will be considered evidence if you ever have to go to court and prove you made the music. But once again, I don't know if this works outside Sweden.

[Aleksi]

I don't know about other countries, but in Sweden you can do this: before releasing music, burn the songs on a cd, put the cd in an envelope, address it to yourself, and then go to the post office. There, you tell them you want it delivered with... um, I don't know the English word for this but... there's a sort of warranty you can get so that the postal service accepts full responsibility for whatever it is your sending. If it's lost or damaged, they have to compensate you. When the envelope is delivered, don't open it and put it in a safe place. The date on the stamp will be considered evidence if you ever have to go to court and prove you made the music. But once again, I don't know if this works outside Sweden.

Same here. And i did it for a long time. But, being part of an organization that was (originally) created to protect your music is pretty convinient. If someone every steals your music, they do all the job. And trust me, you don't want to face that alone.

Sacem also pays on radio diffusion, tv, etc... But then, you can choose where your music goes, and well, then it gets complicated...

[West]

Well like I said, I would trust STIM about as far as I could throw them. Sacem might be another matter though.

Maybe I should move to France.

[TimothyP]

Okay, well, we need someone who understands licensing to figure out what the best way is to protect our original music pieces.

If we change the license, I stay. If we don't change it, I remove my pieces from Wesnoth and walk away. I had no idea when I joined up back in the day that music could be considered "source". I thought that was a term for software code.

If anyone knows about CC licenses, please speak up.

[West]

If we don't change it, I remove my pieces from Wesnoth

Actually, I'm not sure you can do that.

Posting any contributions to this game on this web forum is a tacit acceptance of the fact that you are placing them under the GNU General Public License.

You maintain your own full rights to the contributions, and may continue whatever you, the owner, wish to do with them, but you have given us the right to use them under the limitations of the GPL.

So basically, what's in stays in, as far as I can tell. But yeah, we need someone who's good at this whole licensing business.

Edit: Oh, the quote was from this sticky which you no doubt have read at some point.

[TimothyP]

I must have read that long ago, but with the phrasing about keeping all rights, I had assumed that meant only I can do stuff with it. I didn't know GPL meant other people can mess with my music.

Really, we need to know if music can even be released under GPL.

If I still have the rights to my music, I think I have the right to remove it from the game. Is that incorrect? If so, then I guess I cut my losses and stop contributing. But first, we really need to know the ins and outs of the licensing and how music works under the licensing.

[Jozrael]

Basically, you still OWN your music. It was made by you, no one else, and the GPL does not give anyone the right to pretend they wrote it. It does, however, give them the right to do whatever they please with it in terms of using it, modifying it, etc. I'm not sure about making money off of it, but probably that too.

[zookeeper]

Really, we need to know if music can even be released under GPL.

Sure it can. It just requires one to provide the source and all that. Of course, none of the music in Wesnoth should be GPL, because AFAIK every single music contributor (except maybe Zhaytee, I'm not sure about him) has stated that they would not release their sources to the pieces in any case (or would perhaps not even be legally entitled to) although that's exactly what GPL requires.

But AFAIK there's nothing in the GPL which would somehow prevent it being applied to rather arbitrary works. If you'd apply it to some work in case of which it's not clear what constitutes the source and so on, then it'd simply be decided in court if someone took the matter that far.

Basically, you still OWN your music. It was made by you, no one else, and the GPL does not give anyone the right to pretend they wrote it. It does, however, give them the right to do whatever they please with it in terms of using it, modifying it, etc. I'm not sure about making money off of it, but probably that too.

Correct.