The Rouser

[JW]

Rouser:
HP 26 -> 28-30
DMG 5-3 -> 7-3 firststrike
Leadership of goblins

vs

Impaler:
HP 26
DMG 7-3 firststrike
DMG 5-1 ranged

How about Rouser just gets a standard 7-3 regular Pierce attack instead of his 5-3 one? No ranged, no firststrike, no extra hp.

[Jetrel]

Rouser:
HP 26 -> 28-30
DMG 5-3 -> 7-3 firststrike
Leadership of goblins

vs

Impaler:
HP 26
DMG 7-3 firststrike
DMG 5-1 ranged

How about Rouser just gets a standard 7-3 regular Pierce attack instead of his 5-3 one? No ranged, no firststrike, no extra hp.

I think that "changing his melee to 7-3" is something we all agree on, and should be committed. Aye?

Anything else could be done later, if it is deemed necessary.

[Zhukov]

How about Rouser just gets a standard 7-3 regular Pierce attack instead of his 5-3 one? No ranged, no firststrike, no extra hp.

Sounds good. That way the player chooses between Leadership on the one hand, firststrike and weak ranged on the other.

[Jetrel]

How about Rouser just gets a standard 7-3 regular Pierce attack instead of his 5-3 one? No ranged, no firststrike, no extra hp.

Sounds good. That way the player chooses between Leadership on the one hand, firststrike and weak ranged on the other.

Unless anyone relevant complains, I'm going to do this in the next day or so.

[Doc Paterson]

I think that "changing his melee to 7-3 is something we all agree on, and should be committed.

Unless anyone relevant complains, I'm going to do this in the next day or so.

My complaint is that Art Devs, or any non-MP devs for that matter, are not supposed to be making and committing unit-stat related changes. This has always been the job of the MP Devs, and I know we've been over this before.

We only make unit-stat changes when the majority of the MP Devs, that is, Dragonking, Soliton, Noy and myself, agree on such a change. There is a reason why these decisions are left to players who are considered multiplayer experts; surely it doesn't make sense for Devs who do not specialize in MP to bring up an issue on the forums, consult with other non-MP players (and none of the actual MP Devs), and then commit a change.

The Rouser does need work. We are in the process of fixing it, and we'll consider these ideas.

[Noy]

I think Jetryl knows how it all works, and he was concerned that no progress was being made (when in fact we were working on it). its 6-3 and we bumped its hp up. No problem here.

[Doc Paterson]

I think Jetryl knows how it all works, and he was concerned that no progress was being made (when in fact we were working on it).

For the future though, it'd be better for him to PM one of us with something like, "Hey, what's going on with that Rouser?," rather than deciding on a change with non-MP devs and moving towards committal.

[wayfarer]

Hey Doc if you see it that way than it sounds Wesnoth balancing is a war of attrition with an high momentum. So what to do waiting until a god shows up from the high sky above.

I don't have any view in multiplayer balancing but if I have tool that I can't use, something is broken. It should be fixed. Besides the threat isn't fresh a note from any MP Dev would have cleared the whole thing or is the whole multiplayer development a secret society.

[Noy]

Hey Doc if you see it that way than it sounds Wesnoth balancing is a war of attrition with an high momentum. So what to do waiting until a god shows up from the high sky above.

I don't have any view in multiplayer balancing but if I have tool that I can't use, something is broken. It should be fixed. Besides the threat isn't fresh a note from any MP Dev would have cleared the whole thing or is the whole multiplayer development a secret society.

Have you ever actually approached us wayfarer, rather than coming from left field with this post? Would you like to post examples where we've dropped the ball, or not considered a suggestion? We're on IRC all the time, you can PM us too. And in this case we were already on it. Soliton informed Jetryl that a change would be made, and that was that. We didn't reply to the thread, but then again, we don't have time to post in every thread about everything we do. We tried that once and we decided there was little benefit. Its in the changelog, and thats good enough.

I don't go and implement stuff in other developers areas of responsibilities, and neither should you to ours. MP balance is alot different than other areas of wesnoth, it can be contentious especially if you don't have a strong idea of what you want to accomplish overall, which we've put together.
We have been given the authority for these areas for our own, and we do jealously guard that right, precisely because we are careful with the balance. We just don't appreciate when people add or change stuff without our knowledge or approval.

All this is not to say that we don't listen to outside submissions. We do, and very carefully I might add. I would say that a very large percentage of balancing claims come from outside of the MPdevs (maybe over 50%), Most of which are done personally through IRC or in the game. But if we don't reply to the forums, its either we don't judge the sitaution to be warranting a change (99% of the time) or we are working on it. If you want to talk to us about it, we are here, we are willing to talk. If you want clarification on a decision made, come and ask us. I'm not going to write 15 different posts for every decision though.

[Soliton]

Hey Doc if you see it that way than it sounds Wesnoth balancing is a war of attrition with an high momentum. So what to do waiting until a god shows up from the high sky above.

I don't have any view in multiplayer balancing but if I have tool that I can't use, something is broken. It should be fixed. Besides the threat isn't fresh a note from any MP Dev would have cleared the whole thing or is the whole multiplayer development a secret society.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here except that some MP dev should have posted about the committed change here.
Since I was the one that committed it I can answer that.
Yes, I should have done that but I don't have all day to keep up with the forum. It is not the medium to use if you want definite answers/decisions on balancing concerns/questions/suggestions. (As far as I am concerned anyway.)
The best way to contact me is via IRC at #wesnoth-dev or preferrably #wesnoth-mp on freenode.
Incidentally that's also where I briefly talked with Jetryl about this when I committed the change.

I have no idea what you were saying with the other stuff you stated. If it was important please restate it in german.

[Jetrel]

My complaint is that Art Devs, or any non-MP devs for that matter, are not supposed to be making and committing unit-stat related changes. This has always been the job of the MP Devs, and I know we've been over this before.

We only make unit-stat changes when the majority of the MP Devs, that is, Dragonking, Soliton, Noy and myself, agree on such a change. There is a reason why these decisions are left to players who are considered multiplayer experts; surely it doesn't make sense for Devs who do not specialize in MP to bring up an issue on the forums, consult with other non-MP players (and none of the actual MP Devs), and then commit a change.

I think Jetryl knows how it all works, and he was concerned that no progress was being made (when in fact we were working on it). its 6-3 and we bumped its hp up. No problem here.

Noy described exactly what happened.


All I had been proposing to commit was an incremental solution; the beauty of my patching something during the meantime is that it in no way precludes the actual MP devs doing a better job, later, but provides a temporary solution to the majority of the problem. What I was proposing to do was in the ballpark of what was actually done, and hence would have been a benefit, not a problem. And if it was (however absurd the possibility), a problem, it takes all of ten minutes to revert.

Turf wars are a waste of good melodrama.

The Rouser does need work. We are in the process of fixing it, and we'll consider these ideas.

"We", as in "the other MP devs," fixed this almost half a month ago.

Incidentally {IRC} is also where I briefly talked with Jetryl about this when I committed the change.

Which is probably most of why he didn't post about it here.

[wayfarer]

For the first I don't mess with multiplayer balance and I also barely touch this area but what I was puzzled about is the reaction that someone just want's to push a change and there is a reaction like a holy cow gets slaughtered as I haven't seen the process behind. I must restate my comments. My point was and actual still is that if the change is reasonable anybody should be able to take care of it without ending in an arguement of competences.

[Doc Paterson]

"the other MP devs," fixed this almost half a month ago.

That's not at all what I'm concerned with- What I'm talking about is the idea that non-MP devs would, rather than asking the appropriate devs about their progress, begin by saying, "It's agreed- I'm going to do this soon...." Whether or not changes were made by MP devs after this point is irrelevent.

As Noy said, our unit balance is a delicate thing, and we cannot have people outside of the MP group making and committing changes, no matter how useful or appropriate they may think that their changes are. These designations are in place for a reason.

Is there anyone here who really doesn't agree with me on this?

[Doc Paterson]

Turf wars are a waste of good melodrama.

Don't worry about that; I have plenty to spare.

HODOR.

[Noy]

For the first I don't mess with multiplayer balance and I also barely touch this area but what I was puzzled about is the reaction that someone just want's to push a change and there is a reaction like a holy cow gets slaughtered as I haven't seen the process behind. I must restate my comments. My point was and actual still is that if the change is reasonable anybody should be able to take care of it without ending in an arguement of competences.

If it isn't your area why are you making assertions about it then? This is a pretty complex area, one that is fundamentally different from others. I don't go and commit art without asking an art developer, so why is it okay to go and commit Balancing changes without speaking to a mp dev, even if its sooo logical?

This is a touchy subject to us. It is a matter of competences, and as I've said its something that we do not want to see at all. As a rule, no mp dev implements something by himself. We discuss all proposals amongst ourselves and then we come up with a consensus. Thats why we look on it very poorly when one person who isn't part of the mp devs, goes and implements something without our tacit approval. YOU might think that its something minor, but often times its not. Last time that someone tried to do this we reverted all their changes, because they weren't minor, they changed the balance of a whole faction by giving it a different attack.

Its funny because most developers already get this and endorse us on it.