Proposal: Eliminate the Holy damage type.

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » November 24th, 2006, 11:35 am

Noyga wrote:You see the problem ? This damage type is not intuitive
None of the damage types are particularly intuitive...
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Post by Darth Fool » November 24th, 2006, 2:15 pm

I think that the name and the resistances need to be centered around normal units. The name should reflect a type of damage that people will associate with the ability to damage something, and the resistances should be set up so that the default damage dealt is 100%. Magical damage would be good if it weren't for the fact that it would be confused with the weapon special. In this regard of what has been proposed I would prefer arcane or mystic. Another possibility would be 'spell damage' although that might make less sense on a paladin's sword. I do like the idea of hearing it in context:

blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane
blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, mystic
blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, spell
blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, dispel
blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, disruption

I think mystic damage is probably the best in context. From Webster's :
Entry Word: mystic
Function: adjective
Text: 1 having seemingly supernatural qualities or powers <the notion that a cat has nine lives is based upon the belief that nine is a mystic number>

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Post by Redeth » November 24th, 2006, 11:16 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:None of the damage types are particularly intuitive...
But they make sense, because a damage type should represent some kind of force, that's where the damage comes from: blade, pierce and impact represent damage caused by kinetic force applied to some specific form of object (thus creating physical weapons), while fire(heat) and cold are forces themselves, you just need to unleash them in the proper direction to cause damage (thus creating energy weapons).

arcane: "Known or understood by only a few" <-- where is the damage-causing force?

dispel, disrupt: those are actions, there's no particular force behind them

Now a little excercise. Let's imagine a weapon called "Brutus". We don't know what kind of weapon it is, but we want to define it by placing its type of damage next to its name, so we could have:

Impact Brutus
Piercing Brutus
Blade Brutus
Fire Brutus
Cold Brutus

That makes sense because you immediatly get to know what that weapon is all about. It's a weapon that can either slash you, pierce you, burn you, etc. Now onto these other possible types of damage that are being considered:

Arcane Brutus
Mystic Brutus
Dispel Brutus

Super Annoying Kid: ...whoa... they sound cool, but what are they?

Me: ermm... some sort of... weird... ancient, strange attacks that...

Super Annoying Kid: but they ARE weapons, aren't they?

Me: yes, of course, in a way, I mean they're supposed to be quite formidable and...

Super Annoying Kid: so how do they work?

Me: well, erm... you see, arcane and mystic forces are gathered around...

Super Annoying Kid: do they slash you?

Me: No...

Super Annoying Kid: burn you? consume you?

Me: No, not exactly, you must understand that...

Super Annoying Kid: freeze you? disintegrate you?

Me: No, no, let me think!

Super Annoying Kid: pierce you? blind you? banish you?

Me: for the sake of mother nature, shut your trap, kid! I will arcanize you to death with the dispeling mystic powers of my disruptor brutus, oh yes, now you will feel the essence of my wrath and I shall depurate your annoying entrails, you will see, oh sweet lord of senseless damage types, I swear you will!!!!!111

:wink:
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Post by Jetrel » November 25th, 2006, 2:01 am

Redeth wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:None of the damage types are particularly intuitive...
But they make sense, because a damage type should represent some kind of force, that's where the damage comes from:
Damage can come from no outside force. Alexander the Great died that way. What force would it be, if a sorceror cast a spell on you that stopped your heart?

NONE. Just plain black magic.

What kind of force is "being turned to stone"? None! It's magic.
Redeth wrote:Super Annoying Kid: ...whoa... they sound cool, but what are they?

Me: ermm... some sort of... weird... ancient, strange attacks that...

Super Annoying Kid: but they ARE weapons, aren't they?

Me: yes, of course, in a way, I mean they're supposed to be quite formidable and...

Super Annoying Kid: so how do they work?
This is how they work.

The point - you don't need to understand at first glance. The results demonstrate the damage. It's the "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" principle. The unwashed savages might never understand what arcane power is, any more than they understood what a heartattack was. Victims just die, and that is comprehensible, and all they need to know.

If you threatened a man of 1850 with being irradiated to death, he would just say ... "Huh?" If you (seriously; you could assume it's torture or something) threatened a man of 2000 with being irradiated to death, he'd be legitimately frightened.


I hope we can lay any arguments about "incomprehensibility" to rest. By having magic at all, we erect a certain "suspension of disbelief". Magic won't ever make sense, because by definition, there is no explanation for it.
Last edited by Jetrel on November 25th, 2006, 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jetrel » November 25th, 2006, 2:03 am

My choices in order:
1] Arcane
2] Mystic
3] Dispel

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Post by JW » November 25th, 2006, 11:50 am

Jetryl wrote:My choices in order:
1] Arcane
2] Mystic
3] Dispel
My choices in order:
1] Dispel
2] Mystic

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » November 25th, 2006, 12:41 pm

What, are we voting? :P

1] Dispel
2] Arcane
3] Mystic
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Post by Temuchin Khan » November 25th, 2006, 1:54 pm

1) Arcane
2) Radiant

Linguistically, "arcane" sounds good at the end of the list:

blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane

I realize this isn't a primary consideration, but in my opinion it does count for something.

EDIT: And just for the record, when Temuchin makes a list, it sometimes includes words that Temuchin didn't know until he made the list!

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Post by Noyga » November 25th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Well the damage makes sense, but for the most species there is no intuitive way to rate their resistance against it (it makes sense, but often a very different sense among people).
For the name i would vote :
1) Disruption
2) Mystic (a bit vague)
3) Dispell (sounds a little strange as a damage type to me)
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Post by Oreb » November 25th, 2006, 10:43 pm

1) Arcane
2) Dispel
3) Mystic

Even the word Arcane would be arcane to most people.
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Post by turin » November 25th, 2006, 10:50 pm

Arcane. Definitely

If not arcane, mystic.

Not dispel, please.
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Post by Sapient » November 26th, 2006, 2:20 am

I ended up agreeing with Noyga.
My vote and breakdown:

1) disruption
Concerning Disrupt: Redeth never heard of a mace of disruption? Uh, sorry JW and EP-- but the existance of a similar-named damage type in EOM should not be a factor in the mainline damage types consideration... :wink:

2) mystic
The more I think about it, the more I like mystic damage. There is some precedent in other games for mystic damage being effective against undead. So it's relevant and it sounds nice.

3) dispel
Arcane sounds good for some other purpose maybe, but for this damage type I'd prefer "dispel" (being the opposite of arcane/magic it does make sense), even though it doesn't sound particularly damaging against normal creatures.
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Post by Darth Fool » November 26th, 2006, 2:58 am

Looking at this page, assuming I don't end up on the next page, I would say mystic wins.

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Post by JW » November 26th, 2006, 4:09 am

Darth Fool wrote:Looking at this page, assuming I don't end up on the next page, I would say mystic wins.
I think that's a fair assessment. It's actually grown on me more now that I've read it a lot. Dispel and Arcane have not. They don't seem to have as much personality.

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Post by freim » November 26th, 2006, 9:21 am

1) Arcane
2) Mystic

Dont like Dispel.

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