Changing level 0 units

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turin
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Changing level 0 units

Post by turin » March 10th, 2006, 8:32 pm

it seems stupid to me that the removing of level 0 units' ZoC is hardwired into the definition of level 0 units. It makes it impossible to make a level 0 unit have a ZoC, which would be desirable, for example, in the Imperial Era.


The solution would be to remove this "feature" from the definition of level 0 units, and instead give it to all level 0 units as a specialty - call it "novice" or something, and make it remove the unit's ZoC. Then, you can have level 0 units that DO have ZoCs, simply by not giving them this specialty. This would also allow you to have level 1, 2, 3 or 4 units that don't have ZoCs, which might be desirable in some situations.
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Post by Alks » March 10th, 2006, 9:32 pm

I'm for that sollution. It would give units another specific ability and would increase their tactical variability. It would f.e. allow to form a branch of skirmishers with higher damage/movement/etc. but strip them of ZoC. Simply, it would be a nice thing.

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Post by turin » March 10th, 2006, 9:33 pm

Xan has just informed me that this has been implemented in SVN. It works like this:
<Xan|> under the [unit] tag of unit types
<Xan|> if zoc=yes, that unit will have a ZoC, no matter what
<Xan|> if zoc key exist, but != yes, that unit will not have ZoC
<zookeeper> so it doesn't change anything current? yay
<Xan|> if zoc key does not exist it will have zoc only if level > 0
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Post by Alks » March 10th, 2006, 9:45 pm

Gorgeous :D

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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar » March 10th, 2006, 10:51 pm

Another thing that's wierd about L0 units is they still cost 20GP to recall.
I know all units cost 20GP to recall, but since L0 usually cost about half that in the first place, it seems like they should cost less. Unless they have the perfect traits, i don't see much point in recalling them.
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Post by Soliton » March 11th, 2006, 12:01 am

Eleazar wrote:Another thing that's wierd about L0 units is they still cost 20GP to recall.
I know all units cost 20GP to recall, but since L0 usually cost about half that in the first place, it seems like they should cost less. Unless they have the perfect traits, i don't see much point in recalling them.
Maybe the recall cost should be the unit's cost if it's less than 20 gold?
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Post by Eleazar » March 11th, 2006, 12:44 am

Soliton wrote:
Eleazar wrote:Another thing that's wierd about L0 units is they still cost 20GP to recall.
I know all units cost 20GP to recall, but since L0 usually cost about half that in the first place, it seems like they should cost less. Unless they have the perfect traits, i don't see much point in recalling them.
Maybe the recall cost should be the unit's cost if it's less than 20 gold?
Since L1-5 units all cost 20GP to recall, (reguardless of their original price) i think that all L0 units should all have the same recall cost-- 10GP perhaps?

With a some XP (assuming you are happy with the traits) a recalled L1-L5 unit is almost always a better deal for your Gold than a fresh recruit. IMHO recalling L0 units should also be more cost effective than recruiting new ones.
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Post by JW » March 11th, 2006, 11:09 am

Eleazar wrote:Another thing that's wierd about L0 units is they still cost 20GP to recall.
I know all units cost 20GP to recall, but since L0 usually cost about half that in the first place, it seems like they should cost less. Unless they have the perfect traits, i don't see much point in recalling them.
They generally take very little xp to level though, so they don't remain level 0 for long, generally.

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Post by Tux2B » March 11th, 2006, 12:21 pm

Now you mention it, there is something strange about recalls. They sometimes cost less than it is to recruit. Like the gryphon : it costs 24 gold, but it is only 20 in recall, while as you mentionned lvl0 ones become very expensive.
Maybe recalling could be changed and would be recruit price + (additionnal expense depending on the level of the unit).
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Post by scott » March 11th, 2006, 1:27 pm

OFWRA.

It wasn't exactly a flamewar, but it has been discussed to death, especially the flexible recall cost.
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Post by quartex » March 13th, 2006, 5:29 am

Level 0 units have always been a bit of an abberition. They broke several standards in wesnoth (ZoC, recall, upkeep) and the current comprimise was decidad as the best of an imperfect situation. I think further changes are unlikely, unless people agree that there are major balance problems.

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Post by Jetrel » March 14th, 2006, 2:53 pm

An interesting and related abberation existed in Starcraft. In starcraft, your forces had a maximum upkeep business - you needed to have a certain number of support structures to hire a certain number of troops.

All units cost 1 or more upkeep. Many cost 2 (the zerg ultralisk cost 4).

Except for two. The zerg race's "zergling" and "scourge, their swarming melee/kamikaze units, essentially cost 1/2. They would never show this, and I'm not sure how they rounded things. Interestingly enough, you could only buy them in 1-upkeep increments. When you purchased them, you got them in batches of two.


I mention this as food for thought.

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Post by Eleazar » March 17th, 2006, 1:39 pm

discussion of how to visually display ZoC split off here.
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